I also am really glad to see that everybody here who is taking a side is referencing the Bible. At least we can agree on the source, if not always the interpretation! God is good.

Thanks for your desire to help me grow in the Word.

I did a search on the word “all” in 1 & 2 Timothy and found nothing in support of your position, in opposition to the Biblical worldview I laid out.

What I showed you in my post is how God has clearly communicated about this subject in the fullness of Scripture. I’ve showed you how God speaks about issues differently in different situations. It’s really quite clear, but I can see how you’d disagree. I used to agree with Wayne Grudem and John Piper. I own the book you mentioned, and am familiar with many of its concepts.

I love Wayne and John, but believe they’ve missed it on this one.

Here’s an example of a passage from 2 Timothy that illustrates the contextual realities of Paul’s letters:
“When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments” (2 Timothy 4:13).

If you’re ever able to pick up that cloak, give me a call.

I’m happy to be your brother Logan, and I thank you for writing on our blog.

Are you in seminary? Is that the homework you’re mentioning?

Many blessings upon you,

Chris

http://ugosspot.blogspot.com/2009/10/can-women-be-pastors-no.html

It’s like when God regulates divorce in the Old Testament. It’s not cause God likes divorce. It’s cause He’s dealing with culture on it’s level.

The whole slavery thing is not about developing some kind of slick argument that can be pulled out whenever it is beneficial to the interpreter. It’s about pointing out exactly what happened.”

Are you seriously making the point that this does not apply to how the church is to be governed and only “in the setting Timothy is in.”

Context?

I would like you, Chris, to please show me where in 1 Timothy, Paul applies this ONLY to Timothy’s church. I can give many examples where Paul is applying this command to ALL local pastors/elders/overseers at ALL local churches.

Just read through the book and look for the word “All” it occurs quite often and it is obvious that this epistle (like all of his other God-breathed one’s) would be spread to many other churches immediately.

You are literally trying to make the case (by your claim to culture being the reason that Paul told Timothy no women being in authority) that you know more about Paul’s thinking than what is actually revealed in the Scripture.

Speculation and Extrapolation.

You have several passages from Paul; explicit commands that women are not have authority over men in church settings. Do you not believe those parts of the Bible in favor of implications you draw from various passages which are not in the context of church government?

Which, if read in context, could actually bear out the true meaning of the text instead of being used.

And you pull a Galatians 3 verse as your conclusion point.

Which (of course if anyone looked at it for more than three seconds could see that it’s in the context of faith and justification) simply points out that Christ loves all His elect equally. It’s not in the context of church governance so I’m confused as to how this verse has any relevance.

I am not interested in attacking you and have far too much homework to sustain an extended dialogue; but I thought I’d give you some food for thought.

I’d recommend reading Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by Wayne Grudem. http://www.cbmw.org/Biblical-Foundations-for-Manhood-and-Womanhood/

Each of the arguments you’ve brought up are very well-addressed in this book, I post all of this in prayer for you and your church that Christ would be glorified. And I will be praying for the Spirit to convict you on this matter; I am encouraged that you would actually respond to critiques rather than most other church blogs. Blessings.

soli deo gloria,
Logan Paschke

I enjoyed reading this. Thank you Pat!

I did notice that you still copied some lines without citing them. Several of these sentences are verbatim, from an article written on “gotquestions.org.” Unless you wrote that article, please make it clear that these are not your words.

So what you’re saying is that this passage is telling women to refrain from commenting on tongue-speaking and prophecy? So you believe it’s OK for women to sing in church services today, and to greet other people, and to ask questions?

What about when prophecy is read from the Bible, during a Bible study? I think your church has what you call “Sunday School” right? If the teacher is reading from the book of Isaiah, or any prophetic text, can a woman ask questions, or does she need to wait until she gets home?

By the way, we do consider what we do on this blog to be church. We don’t limit it to Sunday morning in a building.

“…for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints

Verse 33 references back to the previous verses (26-32,) about speaking in tongues and order in the church, but also serves as an introduction to the next couple of verses. The word “confusion” is key to the whole chapter. The church at worship before God should reflect His character and nature because He is a God of peace and harmony, order and clarity, not strife and confusion. (See Romans 15:33, 2nd Thessalonians 3:16, and Hebrews 13:20.) Though the phrase, “as in all churches,” applies to the previous verses, it also serves as a logical introduction to verse 34 to a universal principle for churches.

Verse 34 – “The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.”

Verse 35 – “If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.”

The principle of women not speaking in churches is universal; this applies to all churches, not just locally, geographically, or culturally. The context of this verse concerns prophesy, but includes the general theme of the chapter, i.e., tongues. Rather than leading, they are to be submissive as God’s Word makes clear in earlier verses 1st Corinthians 11:3-15 and Genesis 3:16, as well as the later 1st Timothy 2:11-15.

It is not coincidental that many modern churches that have tongue-speaking and have claims of healing and miracles also permit women to lead worship, preach, and teach. Women may be gifted teachers, but they are not permitted by God to “speak” in churches. In fact, for them to do so is “improper,” meaning “disgraceful.” Apparently, certain women were out of order in disruptively asking questions publicly in the chaotic services.

But we can’t stop there, for to do so would be to take scripture out of context. We must understand why.

Corinth, as you probably know, had became so morally corrupt that its very name is synonymous with gross immorality and drunken debauchery and this had spilled over into the church – even some of the worst sins, like incest were found among the church members. There were divisions or “cliques” in the church, too.

Paul knew that the Corinthians would react to all these firm regulations that would end the free-for-all in their services. The prophets, the tongue-speakers, and women may all have been resistant to words, so he anticipated that resistance by sarcastically challenging those who put themselves above his word, and thus, above Scripture by either ignoring it or interpreting it to fit their presupposed ideas. If anyone was genuinely a prophet, or had the true spiritual gift of tongues, he our she would submit to the principles God had revealed through the apostle.

What had God already revealed to Paul regarding women? 1st Corinthians11:3-15 – “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

And what had God already revealed earlier than that? Genesis 3:16 – “To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Simply put, for there to be “order” IN THE CHURCH, as well as in the home, we must follow that natural order that God designed.

How does that apply to me addressing Chris? LOL. You are not my husband. I am not in church. We are ALL commanded, both men and women, to go out into the world and speak the Truth of the Gospel. Welcome to the blogosphere.

Thought you had me, didn’t you.

Goodness! I know you don’t think for a minute that women don’t have a right to blog on church websites. But do you think that if a pastor is considered to be a heretic, that we women don’t have the OBLIGATION to point that out on their website?

Now if the suspected heretic happened to be in MY own church, and I were married, I would talk to my husband about it. If my husband agreed, he would take it up with the pastor. If the pastor really was teaching falsely, and he did not repent of that, then my husband would turn to the elders – as in bring in witnesses. Since I have no husband, I have to go directly to the pastor, which I would do in private as instructed in Matthew 18 and go from there.

I suppose I could have written to you in private first, but since this is more than an “inside church matter,” as you have put all your falsity out to the entire world, my first obligation is to the flock when it comes to heresy. And obviously, I have not been the only poster who finds your brand of Christianity not only heretical but distasteful – even considered blasphemous by some as well.

I need to do a little deeper digging on the Priscilla teaching “to men,” I think that’s a stretch. She worked along side her husband to instruct Apollos. (one man) Apollos was one of the leaders of one of the factions or “cliques” in the church. Priscilla and her husband were good friends of Paul, even risking their lives for him, which is why he held her in high esteem.

Pat, I’d like you to write on this blog, however, even the line “A Grace Community Church Distinctive” is copied directly from one of Grace’s documents. You left it until the very end, and it is not cited. If you copy another author’s words, put all his/her words in quotes and cite them. Otherwise, I’m not going to post anything else you write.

I sincerely would like to hear your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14:33-35. Below is the TNIV translation, which you probably disagree with. Either way, how does this passage relate to you, being that you are a woman attempting to correct the doctrine of Ekklesia via a written, online blog?

“For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

I’m not going to post your responses if you go on writing an overabundance of comments, especially since much of what you write is plagiarism anyway. For now, stick to this question, or I won’t post what you write.

What an odd twist.

Why are you using an example of someone from a false teaching such as the works-based, heretical Roman Catholic Church? Exchanging the truth for a lie? More ecumenism on your part?

Ecumenism in and of itself is not ENTIRELY bad. It all depends on who you are aligning yourself with. Of most importance is that one must ask if what they teach is Biblical.

Here’s another distinctive from my church which reflects some, but not all of the heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism, and why we should not identify with them – a MUST READ for every true Protestant.

http://www.gty.org/media/pdf/Roman_Catholicism.pdf

For further insight into this matter, please feel free to visit http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Biblical.html

Some more insight on ecumenism:
http://www.gotquestions.org/ecumenism-ecumenical.html

I certainly wouldn’t be lining myself up with the likes of the Catholic church, Mark Driscoll or the “Did Jesus Fart?” crowd.