Here is Bob’s INTRO to the iFart Interview on 103.5 FM WMUZ
This is Chris’ response to Bob
Some positive responses from callers
So… it’s time to get a little discussion goin about this whole iFart thing.
In short, we entered the iFart video contest. Not because we want to win the $5000, though of course that would be nice, but because we want to effectively communicate truth.
We’re using the same strategy the Apostle Paul used when he arrived in Athens (Acts 17:16-34). He effectively engaged culture on their level first, by referring to their idols and famous poets, then he introduced the Athenians to Biblical truth.
We don’t expect to win this contest, because we are making a highly unpopular statement about Jesus’ divinity, but we do intend to inspire many.
By the way, YouTube isn’t tracking the views properly on many of our videos. We have waayyy more views on this one than it says we do.
What do you think about this attempt to reach culture?
Do you think we are reaching out effectively… without selling out?
Do you think we took it too far?
What are other people’s reactions to it? No gossip please 
Email This Post
Thursday, 23. April 2009
It’s a pretty amusing commercial but I’m not sure I see very much in it. I think people already know that Christians believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God. Does communicating it through an iFart commercial make it seem more true or appeal to more people?
Please don’t get me wrong; for what it is, it’s very entertaining. You all did a good job on it.
Thursday, 23. April 2009
You say, “it’s a pretty amusing commercial” and it communicates truth. Maybe it is truth that viewers have already heard before. For some, yes, for others, maybe not. Nevertheless, it contains an incredibly powerful statement of truth. Do you think it’s only worth making a claim to someone if they’ve never heard it before?
In my view, if people enjoy the production of a commercial that was inspired by God, and contains spiritual truth, rather than the crap that many people inundate themselves with regularly, I say, that was a big-time success. Not only that, but it was truth communicated in a manner that many people are not used to… in an arena where Christians usually do not participate.
Monday, 27. April 2009
I’d like to see some more peoples’ thoughts!
Tuesday, 28. April 2009
Congratulations…your church wanted attention and it got it. I guess for some contemporary “Christians,”getting lots of hits on YouTube is what constitutes the work of the Lord.
You must be proud that “iFart” is now an intrinsic part of your church’s identity. You’ve got a prominent link on your website, and you have links all over your site related to it. You probably get a kick out of nettling all those “up-tight” Christians out there, too, I bet.
I guess it doesn’t matter to “Ekklesia” that the entire world wants to make a joke out of Christians, Christianity, and even Christ Himself, and you have basically said: “Hey, don’t leave us out…we want to be part of the vulgarization process, too! When people think ‘Jesus,’ we want them to think of someone you’re not suppose to take seriously, someone who is at best just another tie-in to pop culture!”
We live in an era where a sure way to get cheap attention is to get controversial over the Person of Christ. It sure has worked for atheists like Bill Maher, the creators of “The Simpsons,” and folks like that artist whose exhibit was a crucifix in a jar of urine. I guess it was only a matter of time before churches, under the banner of “Seeker Sensitive,” joined in on the “let’s make a joke out of Jesus” party.
I will have to say this: as the debate rages over whether the direction of “seeker sensitive” is of God or not, tactics like this from churches like “Ekklesia” tell you all you need to know.
Tuesday, 28. April 2009
I thought that it was very clever. Whether or not it accomplishes the purpose (besides the prize money) of helping to promote interest in Jesus remains to be seen. And for those folks who called up Bob Dutko complaining that the video was disrespectful to Jesus, either they didn’t watch the video or they should check the dosages on their medication. Jesus DIDN’T fart; his iPhone did. And the fact that the Son of God seemed to be the only person in the video with a piece of technology from 2000 years in the future would appear to be very RESPECTFUL. Plus, he spoke the truth and admitted that he was the source of the sound. Sounds pretty Christ-like to me.
Tuesday, 28. April 2009
Re: David
Dear David, I recommend you listen to a sermon or two, then let me know how “seeker sensitive” and watered down you think we are. Maybe try “ReJesus Easter.” You’ll find it on youtube if your interested. http://www.youtube.com/EkklesiaDetroit
Have you listened to any sermons or read any of the other blog posts? Maybe you already have. If so, great! If not, you appear to be quick to judge.
Either way, I love you.
Chris
Tuesday, 28. April 2009
Didn’t like it…Of all the awesome works of Jesus Christ, and all of His powerful written Words, why did you choose to tell a made up story rather than share the written Word? Jesus was a man of few words, and each Word He spoke did bear significance and power. In fact He is the Word (John 1). Remember what Isaiah 55:11 says, “So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”
What is also very troublesome, is that once you watch this video on youtube all of the other profane and immoral videos pop up as well. Too bad Jesus’ name is in there with all that filth.
Tuesday, 28. April 2009
Loved it… though it’s effectiveness at reaching those outside of Christ remains to be seen. I will say this… it makes me want to check out your church – so it was effective in that.
Tuesday, 28. April 2009
In many cultures, human flatulence in public is regarded as embarrassing but depending on context also humorous.. In other cultures, it may be no more embarrassing than coughing. In fact, some Arabs consider it the height of good manners to break wind during and after a meal! Some Germans consider burping after a meal a height of good manners. ( By the way, Israel is middle eastern and YES , that’s where Jesus came down on earth as a 100% GOD and 100% man ).
This shows that “culture” and “religion” make us closed-minded and we are limiting the creativity and infinity of GOD!
The reason Jesus died on a cross and rose again is for us to be and make disciples.
For those who are trying to be Christians (and I am trying to…) would you please take Jesus as your example and can you explain to me how do you think Jesus acted when he sat at the table with “prostitutes” and tax collectors? Would you please try to do the same? Can we try to open our eyes and live among all people, not just our box of “cultural Christianity”?
We the “Christians” killed HIM on the cross because we had our own “idea of Jesus” and rejected HIM because we think we know everything!
Most Jews during Jesus time never thought God would hang out with those kinds of people!
Jesus was so controversial for “Christians” they did not even “recognized GOD” and even killed HIM!!!!!
Here in 2009, we are doing the same thing, where a video is trying to shake you up through a lesson where Jesus is using an “iphone”. We merely raise a question, and right away, all the disciples (especially Peter) is limiting Jesus as we are blindly sure that Jesus can do only this and that!!
Boy we like to create our own image of Jesus and that is what kills me. Non believers and even youth Christians are leaving the churches because again…us Christians are creating a limited “image of Jesus”!!!!
People are hungry for GOD and Christianity is doing a poor job presenting Jesus by limiting HIM to a set of rules made up by us.
I hope and pray that we can open our eyes to understand the meaning of this video!
In the meantime, before I will see any other comment on this blog about this topic, I would love for everybody out there to share with us please: HOW DO YOU PRESENT NON BELIEVERS WITH CHRIST?
In the same way, would you please reflect on the scene where Jesus sat at the table with prostitutes and tax collectors? Please try to see how would YOU be acting in that case taking Jesus’ place? Would you sell out?? Or would you be offended of what would they say? Or …would you laugh at their jokes?
For me, its still a mystery, the power of Christ’s LOVE and that HE was able to win those people’s love and me personally I am still at act #1. How did He act???? Can we understand HIS power of LOVE in those circumstances?……wow.
What is your perspective on this?!
Peace!
Great job Ekklesia! God bless.
Tuesday, 28. April 2009
and that is what the “video” brought to my mind !
) Now that is a constructive stimulating thoughts of JESUS ! 
)) jk.
For those of you that are still stuck on the cultural side of a “fart”, please ask a doctors opinion of farting
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
It seems very juvenile. I don’t see the value in it other than shock value to offend people from traditional Christian views. I am very surprised after listening to your ReJesus sermon that you would produce a video like this. The sermon was awesome; the video was off base. If the gospel writers never recorded bodily function – bathroom humor, why would you want to interject it? I don’t see how “love your neighbor” and “love your enemy” gets translated into offend everyone who holds a traditional view, and relates traditonal material about the hypostatic union. Stick to the discipleship message and leave this junk to Howard Stern.
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
Ok.. so of course I have to put in my two cents because I feel like the bob dukho show was ridiculous! I’m mad that I wasn’t able to call in much sooner to tell them a piece of my mind (in a respectable way). I just want to say that #1 all the listeners that responded were middle-aged adults. These adults have no clue as to what appeals to the young generation of today. The youth of today have two views as to what is funny and what is not. As a fairly still young person, I thought the video was GREAT! I was proud after watching that, that ekklesia church is actually doing something for the teens instead of just talking about it.
From what I know about this church, one main mission is to bring the young people into this chuch.. well to do so you have to get on their level. Lets be honest, how many middle-aged americans know about the ifart, iphone, or any technical stuff out there today.. pretty slim to none. If they do, it’s because of their teenage children showed them. To get to the young people you have to do what they do, and tweek it to bring them in. I can say from an outsiders perspective that when I saw the video, I thought it was GREAT! I was then intriguied about what other new things were going on and searched the website. I listened to sermons, songs, and praised God a little. This all started because someone told me to watch a video about something completely different. This video brought me in to seek more.
Everyone is getting too quick on their feet to judge that “oh it wasnt good”.. why? because a church is doing something that appeals to the youth of today!
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
David,
Christ Himself was *beyond* seeker-sensitive. He *was* the seeker and He met people where they are because they could never be where He, as God, wanted them to be (perfect). He would leave the 99 sheep in the field to search after the 1 lost sheep. This commercial message isn’t for the 99 Christian sheep who are already in the field (in fact, it seems to have made them a bit stirred up!) but for the one who is not going online looking for sermons to watch or Bible verses to memorize. Guaranteed, we reached some people who didn’t want to be reached.
David, I’d like to see it more clearly in your post that you are interested in building us up as people. Regardless of whether you agree with the commercial, thank God to have Christian brothers who are excited about Christ and who want to reach out. Please work alongside us. We love your fervor and respect for the Lord and I think you might be surprised, if you check out our church more, to see how much we truly do revere His holy Name.
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
Adriana, excellent points, you’re 100% right on, sister.
Chris:
What’s to judge? It’s simple observation that your church wants associating Jesus with farting as a key part of its image…look at your web site’s home page (you know, where the first thing you see is the person of Jesus reduced to a ceramic bobblehead in another video). You consider this such a wonderful witness to the world you’ve got “iFart” right before “Contact Us.”
But hey, I was thinking that this is so popular you might consider some sequels. How about Jesus is agonizing in the garden, praying to the Father, sweating blood, and suddenly He hears a big farting noise. Then Jesus says, “Peter, I told you to stay up with me, but can you put that darn iFart thing way???!”
Or, how about Jesus is up on the cross, covered in gore, ready to breathe His last, and He says: “Father, forgive them for they-” Suddenly we hear a big farting noise, and Jesus looks down to see his mother getting a big kick out of her iFart application on her iPhone. He says “Doggone it, Ma, can’t you see I’m shedding my blood for the sins of the world?” What a hoot, right?
The possibilities are endless. Imagine the apostles gathered on Pentecost, and instead of speaking in tongues we hear farting sounds going off all over the upper room. People outside are wondering what the heck the apostles had for breakfast. Or, Stephen getting stoned, and every time he gets hit we hear a farting noise.
Hilarious! Is there anything funnier than a fart sound, especially when it’s juxtaposed with a serious New Testament moment? You’ll have them rolling in the aisles!
There’s nothing better as a witnessing tool than to show the world how hip we are, by demonstrating that we don’t need to take any of this all that seriously, that Christians can lighten up and have fun using the Lord of Glory as the butt of their jokes.
As far as listening to any sermons, all I can say is, I don’t need to. I’ve heard plenty of Christians in my lifetime who say all the right things and yet do another. You can tell me you love and honor God all you want, but when I see my Lord Jesus reduced to a common prop in a commercial and dishonored in this fashion, you’ve told me all I need to know about “Ekklesia.”
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
“One of my favorite Simpson’s episodes” … Chris, you wrote this in your jebus link. Not only does it really concern me that you are making jokes about The King of Kings. You also watch that garbage on tv. I don’t know your heart but I would really be careful about trying to be so relevant to the world that you become conformant…Honor the King!!!
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
Re: Gregg
Read Acts 17. Paul carefully studied the idols of the Athenians. Idols are about as nasty as you can get. Worse than a Hustler magazine. You’ve heard of Hustler right?
Not only that, but he quotes from two “false-god worshiping” poets. Many religious people would’ve been furious that Paul quoted from them. This obviously showed that Paul was familiar with their sayings. He actually agrees with their statements, but he doesn’t agree with their conclusions. So, after quoting them, he directs the people to Christ.
What do you make of this?
Based on what you’re saying now, you would have been furious with Paul.
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
I thought it was funny and ya know what they say if cant take a joke better not hang around any of us ekklesia folk cuz we got jokes ohhhhh yeah! But we also know that Jesus is our lord and savior… ya can do both ya know!
Wednesday, 29. April 2009
Its amazing to me that some people on the show said that this video is blasphemous. I tell you what is blasphemous: Joel Olsteen saying that Jesus is not the only way to the Father. Now that is blasphemous. There was nothing in this video that challenged scripture. If anyone finds something I want to know.
Also Bob kept saying that this was the Lord’s supper, and that was not the case. Jesus and the disciples probably ate together like this many times before that amazing last night…
Thursday, 30. April 2009
……wow…how blind are human eyes and thoughts are….
reading all these comments shocked me.
But it is ok. Positive or negative thoughts, before showing people what is might be good or bad, I would love to see “christians” that can be an example for these community, for Ekklesia !
Before putting any other comment here I would love to see you guys sharing here this :
When was the last time you approached a “non believer” , how and please tell me how it worked ?
Probably like that will step up to acts than just talking and in the same time being and example for Ekklesia and for anybody out there.
I will be very dissapointed to see more comments out there before to share with us your experience as a “true christian” and “light” for “non believers”.
Please share your experience as a disciple of GOD and may us all be a light in this confusing, blind world.
Amen!
Thursday, 30. April 2009
somebody said quote:
” A humans opinion becomes a fart in the wind if is not followed by action and consequences”
by Tudor Chiorean
I would love to see examples of “christians” approaching “non believers” and how they did it.
Thursday, 30. April 2009
Lets honestly put this in perspective: This is reality and it is 2009. I think noone especially anyone behind the video or involved in the video had any intent on putting down Jesus or God, blashemy of any kind, or taking the Lords name in some humor factor.AND A LITTLE SIDE NOTE: IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAST SUPPER. None of those are the point. Alot of people don’t realize that Jesus was 100% man AND God while he was alive on earth. The most important thing thats happening is people are doing what had happened in the Bible to spread the word. To let people know about Jesus! Well Ekklesia is one of many and I hope that there is a Jesus effect and it happens NOW. So Im glad and very pleased at this one of many things to come. We need Jesus plugs everywhere. We keep the power on..God knows how the electricity is gonna flow. This is bigger than some iFart laughter gag. Its taking the Bible and interpreting it into how we can reach people now. Times do change, the Bible doesnt. We have to adjust,change, switch up a new change up. The old was good, even great. But now communictaion in the world is much different. We need to use it effectively.
Thursday, 30. April 2009
Alex writes: “David, I’d like to see it more clearly in your post that you are interested in building us up as people.”
I say, I’d like to see it more clearly that “Ekklesia” has more respect for the Lord who makes it possible for us to be a people, instead of reducing Jesus down to a punch line. You people should not be built up and praised for this garbage, no matter how often you want to play the “don’t judge” card.
Alex, you are keying on “seeker sensitive” phrase while completely ignoring whether this video is appropriate with regard to the honor and reverence due to our Lord.
Folks representing “Ekklesia” here keep referring to the examples of Jesus and Paul and how they reached out to people where they were at. Who denies that? The big point they are missing is, at what points during the ministries of Jesus and Paul did they ever show irreverence to the Godhead, or present God in some common, vulgar way? (Answer: NEVER!)
Many years ago, I saw an interview with the cast of Monty Python’s Flying Circus after they had made the movie “The Life of Brian.” In defending the controversial film, which angered many religious institutions, John Cleese made the point that in the film, they were satirizing religious people and the times, not Christ Himself. He said that when writing the script, they discovered that if they wrote jokes that came too near to the person of Jesus, a fascinating thing happened: the jokes ceased to be funny. In other words, even THEY recognized that there was a line that couldn’t be crossed.
Isn’t it ironic that even irreverent non-Christians from the cast of Monty Python somehow understood that back then, but “Ekklesia” doesn’t now. Speaks plenty about the age we live in and the condition of the Church, doesn’t it?
Sorry Alex, this whole thing absolutely disgusts me and I would not want to work alongside with folks like you if these are the tactics used and this is the fruit that is to be borne.
Thursday, 30. April 2009
Wow this is quite the Hot Topic. Some thoughts of my own:
I think Alex hit this right on when he referred to the parable of the lost sheep ( Luke 15:4-7 ). Is it possible a commercial like this leads to the finding of 1 lost sheep? Who knows, that’s irrelevant if you ask me. What is relevant, is that people ARE trying to find the lost sheep in different ways.
Everyone’s journey back to The Shepperd is different, would you fault someone if they told you that they found Christ after they read a message on a bathroom stall that caused them to think about Christ in a different way? A message that was buried next to all of the disgusting things that can be found on a bathroom stall? Would you then tell them their journey was incorrect, or would you accept them with open arms as a brother in Christ? Would you curse those words written on the stall, or would you Rejoice with Christ, that another of his lost sheep has come home.
Only God knows a man’s heart, and what their intentions are, that is not up to our feeble minds to try and discern.
Many times we as Christians like to take the easy way out and say hey, “I told this person about Christ, and he did not listen. I did my part, I wash my hands of it. Its up to God to do the rest…” I have done this myself many times, but its those who are passionate about their mission that really get the work done, but we ALL Rejoice when it has been done.
One last thing to keep in mind here: I understand that it is difficult not to get heated up over a topic like this whether you agree with it or not, because you want to get the image of your Jesus across to the rest of the people here and how dare they not understand Jesus they way I understand Jesus. I ask WWJD? Even if you know 100% that you are right about your opinion, (which would mean you are Jesus), No one hates sin as much as Jesus does. Add up all the hate of all Christians across the whole world that hate Prostitution, its only a drop in the bucket compared to how much Jesus Hates Prostitution.
James 1:19-20
Its easy to stir up flame wars on the internet to try and get your point across, just remember you are not Jesus, and therefore are not perfect. It is possible both sides are partly right, and both sides are partly wrong, whats important is that no matter which side of the fence we find ourselves, we don’t stop seeking his face….
Thursday, 30. April 2009
Hello, my name is Ken Skinner and while I believe this iFart video to be a team effort inspired by God, people would consider me to be one of the main forces behind the video as the filmmaker/producer. I do not say this to boast, but to also not hide as if I did something wrong.
First, if I may, I would like to share a brief testimony about this video:
A Jewish friend, took part in co-directing a video that proclaimed Jesus to be God.
Because of this video and Bob Dutko’s willingness to air the iFart video on the radio, I was able to have an awesome conversation yesterday with a friend who has walked away from God, but I believe and pray to be returning real soon. We discussed how good Jesus was and how negative Christians give us (first time he referred to himself as a Christian since I’ve known him) a bad name.
At work today I was able to share the video with two co-workers, one of whom was kicked out of a church. Both thought the video to be good and not in the sense that we were slamming Christians, but that we weren’t up tight and that they could tell we were very approachable.
Also I was able to briefly discuss the video and the fact I’m Christian with another Jewish friend at work.
Personally speaking, this video has opened a lot of doors for me to dialogue about Jesus to a lot people who might not normally think about Him.
I understand not everybody will like this video. My first reaction is to debate them on why we not only didn’t do anything wrong, but what a good thing this video is. However, if I did that, I would only glorify myself.
This video is about bringing people to Jesus. I respect anyone who doesn’t like this video, but if they’re already a Christian, then it wasn’t for them. I don’t make Christian videos to pat myself, or even Ekklesia, on the back. I’m not trying to save the saved.
And while there are a lot of people who think I may be going about it the wrong way, please rest in the knowledge that I am at least making an effort to witness the glory of God. I suggest that if you do not like the video, then please take that negative energy you may feel towards me or the video, and make it into a positive force that would bring new believers to the kingdom of God.
Thank you and God bless.
Friday, 1. May 2009
Re: Everybody
Hey to all! I’m going to be addressing this iFart situation on Sunday, so I hope ya’ll come out and hear it. David, we’d love to have you.
Friday, 1. May 2009
You’ve stated your intent to engage culture, and THEN deliver a message, which is completely biblical and the way that Jesus communicated. Tim Stevens talks at length about this subject in his book “Pop Goes the Church: Should the Church Engage Pop Culture?” It’s a good read. This method of evangelism is becoming more and more a necessary means.
You’ve also communicated truth about Jesus being 100% God yet 100% human. There is no de-facing of Jesus attributed to the way this video is presented. Ken (above) makes a good point that this video isn’t targeted toward Christians. With that in mind it is a great inlet to dialogue with nonbelievers who view it.
My only potential qualm is in putting words in Jesus’ mouth – I’ve never been a fan of that. (i.e. I greatly dislike the clever “quotes” from God that were a t-shirt fad for a while.) But I am all for rocking the boat and being creative. So I approve this video.
Friday, 1. May 2009
OFFICIAL VOTING has now begun! Please vote AND write some good comments, or a little blog. If we win, that would really help promote the cause!
VOTE HERE:
http://ifartmobile.com/videocontest/ifce-34-did-jesus-fart-ekklesiadetroit/
Sunday, 3. May 2009
Wow.
When a missionary travels overseas to make contact and bring Jesus to a new place, they engage the culture of the people they are trying to reach. While engaging, the missionary must put aside their own culture (or set of rules) and focus on the culture of the people he is trying to reach.
I hate to say this, but our younger culture in America has deteriorated into an extremely vulgar, obscene culture. Just the fact that an application like IFART is blowing up like it is shows that this is what a ton of people are in to.
So if this application is huge in the culture of our younger generation, then why not engage with it? It makes no sense to me why so many passionate Christians cant wrap their mind around the fact that this younger generation has to be engaged.
Another point that I would like to make, is that, from what I have read here, it seems to me that people have no problem saying that this particular outreach idea is wrong. But what I failed to see afterward where examples of what they believe would be deemed acceptable?
How do you engage a fart joke culture? How do you engage vulgar people? To me these are the questions, and this video is a great answer.
It is going to take so much more than pulpits, guilt and hymnals to reach this emerging generation. It is going to take an awakening of Christians. Christians that understand that reaching this generation cant be about us. It has to be about them.
It is also going to take older, more traditional Christians not being so quick to judge and throw people under the bus for doing exactly what the Bible tells us to do.
Your particular comfort zone for reaching out to the lost, has nothing to do with reaching out to the lost.
Much love and respect.
~Steve
Sunday, 3. May 2009
Amen Steve. Amen.
Sunday, 3. May 2009
Chris you defended this on the bob dutko show by using paul’s missionary journey to athens and him addressing the people there by studying/addressing their idols first, but he in no way shape or form compromised the truth, much less belittled who Jesus was. I understand the desire to reach the lost – but not at the ridicule of Jesus. It’s unnecessary and to the contrary of what you said on the show – unBiblical.
(And some claim that it wasn’t the last supper scene — however, the rooster crows at the end. Hmmm…)
Sunday, 3. May 2009
Anything that gets people into a church without compromising the teachings and spirit of The Bible is OK in my book.
If it exists, I would like to see scripture in opposition to this commercial, but I can’t think of any and I have yet to see any posted here. And as far as remaining in the spirit of The Bible…
*Matthew 9:11-13*
When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his
disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax
collectors and ’sinners’?”
On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who
need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this
means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not
come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
What I have seen is perceptions of what is “vulgar” and “garbage” based not on biblical truths but on personal feelings. I admit I’m not even close to a biblical scholar, but I don’t have to be one to know that God’s Word trumps any personal notions we may have about…well…anything and everything. We have to look past what WE think and acknowledge what God thinks.
This commercial wasn’t meant for a christian, it was meant for those who don’t yet know God. The materialistic and hedonistic society we live in demands that we cast away the Field of Dreams notion of “If we build it, they will come.” and actively and aggressively engage the youth culture of TODAY any way we can without compromising the commands of The Lord. Sin is strong, so we must become stronger. Sin is loud, so we must become louder. Whether it’s prayer, one-on-one conversations, commercials, magazine ads, a banner on a skyskraper, etc., we need to use whatever means we can to connect with a culture that is rapidly degenerating and being taught to hate God.
Yet, we also have to think of our christian brothers and sisters and take care not to form rifts. The bible clearly states that we must love one another and form a unified front so that those who don’t believe see our strength in God. This is very difficult due to generational and denominational differences in how we express our love for God. Some prefer a gentle whisper, some prefer an earthquake. Either way, our charge in this world is to save souls. We have to strive to understand each other and help each other any way we can in order to accomplish this.
This commercial was mean to plant a seed, yes, in a comedic manner, but the intent was there. There is only one way to Father (through Jesus), but there are millions of ways to get to Jesus, this is an attempt to help people find one of them.
I haven’t posted anything here of this length before, so I apologize if the formatting is messed up.
Also, God Bless You.
-Bob
Monday, 4. May 2009
Well, I have been following the comments back and forth and have prayerfully sought the Lord on this.
I understand that there are two different spectrums, but only one right answer. I personally, from the beginning, saw nothing offensive about the commercial. I thought it was funny and engaging. But after so many disagreeable comments from many Christians, I kind of started to doubt just a little.
Through my meditations and prayers, I started to think about Jesus. Who is Jesus? Jesus is good. Jesus is truth. Jesus is holy. Jesus is our Savior. Jesus is love. Yes, Jesus is all those things and much much more. But I wanted to understand what Jesus thought about this commercial. I heard the comments about what others thought about the commercial, but I really wanted to know what He thought.
And so I asked God. What do you think about this commercial? This is what I felt the Lord was telling me…
“For the many times I have said, “go and sin no more” and many have fallen because of their disobedience. But I say to you, “go and do the work that I have commanded” and many find fault with my children who are diligently seeking to please me and make others believe what they know to be true. Oh, my dear children, if you only knew the love that draws me to you, a love that can never separate me from you. And you must know how deep that love is, because only then can you understand the meaning behind my teachings. My dear loved ones, love one another as I have loved you and be tolerant with one another as dearly loved children of the Lord. Continue the work that was started and bring many to the knowledge of myself as I have commanded.”
Now, I am not saying that these are God’s words… they very well may be, but all I am saying is that this is the message that I believe God was giving me personally to my question. I am at peace with the work Ekklesia has done in creating this commercial, because after seeking God, He has given me greater peace.
I know without a doubt that Ekklesia as a church, as well as the leadersip of this church are diligently seeking to please God in every way. Sometimes we must just agree to disagree and leave the rest in God’s hands.
I want to just leave you all with a couple of verses that I think will bring us all comfort. Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NLT) “The heart is the most deceitful thing there is, and desperately wicked. No one can really know how bad it is! Only the Lord knows! He searches all hearts and examines deepest motives so he can give to each person his right reward, according to his deeds—how he has lived.”
God will ultimately be the judge of all. I can say, with assurance, that Ekklesia’s intentions were none other than to bring the message of Christ to those who might not receive it through any other means. Praise God for that!
Monday, 4. May 2009
I heard there’s another video out there portraying Jesus as a carpenter. Why would The Son of God choose to be a carpenter? Talk about degrading! Where do people come up with this stuff?
Monday, 4. May 2009
Chris –
I was going to respond to your response to my previous comment but apparently it “disappeared.” Change of heart?
Anyhow – Dana, I like your post. The greatest commandment after all is to love one another. And love forgives… rude comments and all
May God enlighten all of us.
Tuesday, 5. May 2009
Re: Ildy and others
Yes, I removed my response. I decided I didn’t want to direct it at you, because I thought you may have taken it the wrong way. And, It sounds like you did misunderstand it, if you thought it was rude, and you decided to talk about it anyway.
So, now I’ll direct it to everyone. For those who don’t like the video. I think you are taking your personal preference on farting, and you are making a religion out of it. Where does the Bible say farting is wrong? You say farting is shameful, or the like. That is your personal opinion. Other people think it’s funny. Don’t make a religion out of your personal preference. If you can enlighten us fart laugher-at-ers with Scripture, we are open to it.
Also, for those who disagree, we’d like to hear your ideas about reaching young people who like to laugh at farts.
Wednesday, 6. May 2009
I visited Ekklesia for the first time a few weeks ago when I was in town from St.Louis. Since that time, I have been very interested in the ifart controversy. As a middle-aged conservative christian who has spent a lot of time with people of all ages, I have learned that it is so important to look deeper than what you see on the surface. It is obvious that this church is focused on glorifying Jesus and making Him known. I appreciate their efforts, even with this video, to reach out. Keep up the good work!
Thursday, 7. May 2009
These are some great comments! Patrice, that was beautiful. I’d like to ask everyone to post these comments, and others on the actual iFart blog page. One of the big factors in determining the winner is based on the comments/blogs that people post.
Here you go:
http://ifartmobile.com/videocontest/ifce-34-did-jesus-fart-ekklesiadetroit/
Thursday, 7. May 2009
I completely agree with Chris on this- those who are angry because they are seeing Jesus in a ‘negative’ light, are those who are using their own perspective to define ‘negative’.
‘Farting is gross’. Says who, exactly? Your Grandmother? Well, if she believes that it is, she has every right to do so, but I am certain she didn’t read that in the Bible.
It seems people want to paint the sad picture of Jesus. The seriousness, the drama of what happened to him, etc. I suppose you think Jesus never smiled, but I assure you, he did. And I assure you that he wants us to smile, as well.
I’ll end by saying that if you are offended by this video, perhaps you should rethink what constitutes real offense. Do you have a choice in the matter of how it makes you feel? Of course you do, and if your choice is to be angry, perhaps that should change into your choice to not be affected by something you don’t find agreeable, and instead, focus on that which you do find agreeable. Bashing others for their effort gets you not one foothold further, and while you stay up angry, they sleep well knowing they are doing right- with or without your approval.
It’s all a matter of perspective. Those of you who judge this video as offensive have been judged as closed minded by the rest of us. And because everyone’s opinion is valid, everyone’s opinion is right- for them.
It’s something to keep in mind when you walk about enforcing your opinions as fact, and judging others based on your views.
To Chris and Ken and all those involved in the video- you feel you are doing right. You are, so keep at it.
~Kristy
Monday, 11. May 2009
It doesn’t show me anywhere in the bible about farting but it doesn’t show me anything about many other controversial things we know as sin. Please don’t use that “show me in the bible” excuse you are much more intelligent than that.
2) Whoever watches simpsons, king of the hill, and other related cartoons / media should analyze their christian standards according to scripture, this is by no means me casting judgement I am strongly encouraging to self align yourself to scripture and do so quickly
3) My deepest concern is the politically lieing excuse of “this video was not depicting the last supper” I can quote John from above saying something of this sort and another gentleman. Friends, at the end of this video the rooster crows. Are you telling me that randomly whenever Jesus met with His disciples a rooster crowd? Or are you obviously describing the event that took place at the last supper? Please be Men don’t make excuses that insult general thinking we all know this video was in the theme of the last supper.
Monday, 11. May 2009
Can we get the FULL Bob Dutko interview not just the positive remarks?
Friday, 15. May 2009
Hey Andi,
We’ve got it on CD. That’s awesome that you want to tune in to what God is doing through Ekklesia! If you’d like a copy, come by one of our Sunday services. I’d love to meet you and personally give it to you, free of charge. Peace!
Saturday, 16. May 2009
Dr. James Montgomery Boice, before his death, lamented his concern that the church was being enticed “to do the Lord’s work in the world’s way.” We try to transfer principles of success drawn from Madison Avenue and from other secular institutions and imitate them in the life of the church. Such a process is deadly.
Sunday, 17. May 2009
Dear Mr. Chris,
I really admire your Paul in Athens example. Seriously. I grew up in a Christian family all my life but I tend to think outside of the “what is expected” of me to think… and honestly, how you interpreted Paul’s actions is exactly what’s been on my heart.
However, regarding your iFart campaign I TOTALLY DISAGREE with it. Maybe as a joke between close friends in a careless conversation it could pass (ha ha) but (being serious now) I would go as far as saying this is a form of blaspheme. (warning: much sarcasm follows Congrats! on giving the world (non-believers) more reasons to laugh at Christianity, mock God on new levels and reasons to point out the hypocracy modern Christians have when it comes to FEARING, HONORING & serving their Lord and God.
I’d like to refer back to Paul and what he did. He took the idol which was common to that culture. KEY WORD: IDOL (man made, usually of earthy things…etc). You took (KEYWORD) GOD and made him as being common to this culture and just like idols were disgusting to Paul you associated GOD and His deity to something most people find disgusting to bring up in a normal conversation. -every one reading this please take a moment to really understand what i’m saying- the concept, let alone the act, diminishes God, takes away from his deity and lowers him to common man.
I have no problem with explaining God as 100% man when Jesus Christ was on earth but there are many other ways to do this other then to pick a cultural “thing” (for lack of a better word) that pretty much is on the lowest of lowest lists.
I don’t think this culture approach attracted people to open up to God, but instead I think it only comforted the non believer to possibly think that they’re OK. After all, they don’t mock god like His believers do.
Tuesday, 19. May 2009
First, I’d like to say that I’m glad people are able communicate their feelings here without it turning into personal attacks. This is exactly what I think Bible Study, or Discipleship Groups are for. So that people who are passionate about Christ can share interpretations of passages, and of the messages that Christ put on our hearts.
Joe, I’d like to address your post, because I think it is perfectly communicated. Personally, I’m still on the fence whether or not I agree with the iFart Video completely or not. It changes all the time, especially when reading well thought out comments like yours. You really challenge me to think about this again in a different perspective.
Now, I’m not quite sure I would consider this a form of blaspheme, but it really does push the envelope, or teeter on some line that forces us to think deeply about it. Now I will say that I do know Chris personally, and we disagree, or debate things from the Bible all the time. Especially in our Discipleship groups, and as far as I’m concerned, this blog itself is a discipleship group. Now, the pastors of this Church are some people that I hold tremendous respect for, and can say without a doubt, that had it not been for God putting them in my life, my idea of Christianity would be vastly different.
So I have to ask myself often, when I disagree with something, what have they figured out that I haven’t. I grew up in a Church where if a woman had earrings, or wore slacks to church, they were being irreverent to God, and I believed it for a long time, so when something like this comes up, I’m forced to question whether my belief is Biblical, or Cultural. I realize that not a soul on this earth (not even the pastors of this Church) has the Bible, or the Gospel of Jesus Christ completely figured out, so I am constantly challenged to find the truth for myself. (Which is a great thing). I know the pastors, prayed about this intensely before putting out this video. They may have even fasted, I’m not sure, perhaps Chris can shed some light on this. So for me personally, this is enough evidence to keep my opinions on the line teetering back and forth, and continue to challenge myself on this subject. When I figure it out, I’ll be sure to let you know.
Initially in your post you said you admired the Paul in Athens example so I’m led to ask you personally, how can you and I be like Paul in Athens. I had an idea the other day that might be a way that I can be like Paul in Athens. I’m thinking of starting a website, and community of people, that are willing to team up on Hot Internet topics, and go to those sites, that are getting hundreds of thousands of hits on a topic, and begin to relate the Gospel through posts, Blogs, Twitter, you name it. I convinced that the internet has far too little Jesus in it. What sparked this idea, other than God of course, is the posts on the iFart page for this video. People on there sharing the Truth as they see it was captivating to me, and I would like to keep that conversation going all across the internet, on the Hottest topics of the week, whether its American Idol, Something to do with Politics, or the Latest Celebrity outrage.
In the end I have faith that God will give the correct Judgement for everyone’s actions individually. At the same time, I think if we have an interpretation on an issue, it is our duty to communicate it in a loving manner, like Jesus did. Many times Jesus confronted Pharisees, and many times he just walked away from their provoking comments, and I continually strive to figure out when I should do which.
Wednesday, 20. May 2009
Re: Jon and others from Ekklesia
Jon, lots of good stuff here in your blog. Love the idea about gettin more involved online!
After your post, I felt led to make a few comments for the benefit of people connected to Ekklesia who do not have peace about the iFart attempt to communicate spiritual truth.
#1 Yes we prayed and fasted about this video. We fast nearly every single Wednesday as pastors, and we repeatedly invite everyone connected to Ekklesia to do the same. Today I didn’t fast cause I’m fighting off some kind of sickness. I would appreciate your prayers
#2 Some people think farting is funny. Some don’t. Some don’t care. This is a cultural and personal preference. Period. There is nothing universally moral or immoral about it. Period. This is an extremely important point. I believe there is no solid argument against this point, and combating it displays a person’s passionate commitment to their own bias. No one has effectively disproved this. If someone can, I want to hear the response. By the grace of God, I am very open to correction.
#3 I’m not biased towards people who like farting, people who don’t like farting, or people who don’t care about farting. This isn’t important to me. I want to reach people in each of these categories.
#4 I personally know many people who think farting is funny.
#5 Let me name some people, people who like farting, but I do not know personally: the people who use the iFart application and the people who want to watch iFart videos. Most of these people like farting, and they think it is funny. These are the people the video was designed for.
#6 If a person doesn’t like this video, they shouldn’t watch it. The title tells them what it’s about. They don’t have to hit play, unless they want to.
#7 It is important to do things that offend people’s cultural biases, because those cultural biases can limit the spread of the Gospel. Acts 10 is a clear example. No Jews were reaching Cornelius and his companions with the Gospel. Why? Because of their false cultural beliefs about what foods were clean and which were unclean. Peter had to break this beloved practice in order to make disciples. If anyone is mad about iFart, their anger probably has nothing on the anger of the people against Peter in Acts 10-11. However, look at how the church responded in Acts 11 when Peter told them the good news that disciples were made. They said, “YEAH!” “This is awesome!”
#8 We are trying to make disciples by reaching out to many different kinds of people on their levels. This is just one of a great multitude of attempts.
#9 The big questions is, “Even if this is just a cultural issue, is it worth doing it to reach the lost if it could offend the found?” The answer is “yes.” The found should love Jesus and the lost enough to sacrifice their cultural biases.
#10 The Jesus character doesn’t even fart in this video… at all…
What do you think about this Jon?
Others from Ekklesia, what do you think about this?
Wednesday, 20. May 2009
I am just shocked that so many believers are being so offended with this. I personally don’t see anything, and absolutely anything wrong in this commercial, and I praise God for the fact that we can make disciples thru this video and reach out to non-believers. God knows exactly our thoughts, our hearts and our motives and the fact that everything we do and say is to make disciples and to serve God every day.
Tuesday, 2. June 2009
Dear Jon, [I know, it's nothing you haven't heard yet but it's still funny to me]
I will go ahead and respond to your question of how you and I can be a Paul in Athens. For the start, you are absolutely right; I think now more then ever we need to be like a Paul in Athens in order to reach our peers, our co-workers, our neighbors, our professors…etc. Your suggestion sounds like it would be a very good ice breaker to shed some “truth-light” for all the unbelievers. However, I (with the exception of this blog) have zero experience with blogging, twitter, or other topic websites. But if you have a sincere heart and you think God is calling you to do this I have no doubt in my mind that your labor will have fruit. As for me, I consider myself an old school hybrid (not the car, but as evolving) I talk to my coworkers on our free time and build up some good conversations (we talk about what they want to talk and then later I bring up my topic) and I focus on remembering what they say and get to know them as much as possible. Later on, when they bring up a topic I do my best to respond with Biblical truths enough to where their interest keeps them coming back. It’s a slow process, but I don’t mind; I spend 2/3 of my day at work anyway.
Now I would like to mention something for you to keep in mind. Most of the on-line activity really is just that “on-line.” Making a disciple through the internet is like taking an on-line class; one learns as much as he or she puts into it but really it’s just not the same as if one were attending the actual class, developing a student teacher relationship and socializing with the other classmates. If you can capture the attention of bloggers and on-line dwellers may God grant you the wisdom, the strength and the grace to reel them into church.
And believe me, you are not the only one striving to learn more about the Truth. God bless you and all of us in this matter.
Monday, 22. June 2009
Coupe writes: “People are hungry for GOD and Christianity is doing a poor job presenting Jesus by limiting HIM to a set of rules made up by us.”
Made up by US???
And John Pop writes: “There was nothing in this video that challenged scripture. If anyone finds something I want to know.”
Bob then writes: “If it exists, I would like to see scripture in opposition to this commercial, but I can’t think of any and I have yet to see any posted here.”
Okay, both of you – coming right up!
Andi makes the KEEN observation that the FULL comments are not available here on the website, but Chris comes back with an invite to the church to pick up a CD copy of the whole thing. Interesting. I live out of state and I’ d like to hear all those negative comments. There’s a reason why they aren’t posted here. CHRIS PREFERS PRAISE AND FLATTERY. It wouldn’t favor the church, the website, or Chris. In law, the “act of omission” is considered a LIE, since it’s not FULL DISCLOSURE..
Kristy writes: “It’s something to keep in mind when you walk about enforcing your opinions as fact, and judging others based on your views.”
My opinions? MY opinions???
And Pastor Chris writes: “If you can enlighten us fart laugher-at-ers with Scripture, we are open to it.” And also, “I believe there is no solid argument against this point, and combating it displays a person’s passionate commitment to their own bias. No one has effectively disproved this. If someone can, I want to hear the response. By the grace of God, I am very open to correction. “
Really, Chris, as a the pastor, IF YOU ARE TRULY ANOINTED, you should already know this stuff like the back of your hand.
Well, let’s see. Instead of my “personal preference” or “opinion,” or “bias,“ let’s see what FACTS the Bible has about all this. Here’s a little something for the edification of all here – GOD’S “ PERSPECTIVE.” I’m pretty confident in it. These verses are taken from the New American Standard Bible (NAS.)
It’s not whether I am offended, but whether or not God is offended, so here we go.
“Show yourself in all respects a model of good deeds, and in your teaching show INTEGRITY, GRAVITY, AND SOUND SPEECH THAT CANNOT BE CENSURED, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing EVIL to say of US.” Titus 2:7-8
“Therefore BE IMITATORS OF GOD, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But IMMORALITY OR ANY IMPURITY OR GREED MUST NOT EVEN BE NAMED AMONG YOU, as is proper among saints; and THERE MUST BE NO FILTHINESS AND SILLY TALK, OR COARSE JESTING, WHICH ARE NOT FITTING, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that NO IMMORAL OR IMPURE PERSON OR COVETOUS MAN, WHO IS AN IDOLATER, HAS AN INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND GOD. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, FOR BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS THE WRATH OF GOD COMES UPON THE SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE. THEREFORE DO NOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE UNFRUITFUL DEEDS OF DARKNESS, BUT INSTEAD EVEN EXPOSE THEM.” Ephesians 5:1-11
“For those who live ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (as in CULTURE,) SET THEIR MINDS ON THE THINGS OF THE FLESH, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. FOR TO SET THE MIND ON THE FLESH IS DEATH, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. FOR THE MIND THAT IS SET ON THE FLESH IS HOSTILE TO GOD, FOR IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW; INDEED, IT CANNOT. THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD. Romans 8:5-8
” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but RULES TAUGHT BY MEN. You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to THE TRADITIONS OF MEN.’ And he said to them: ‘You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!’ ” (Mark 7:6-9)
“Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. SEE TO IT THAT NO ONE TAKES YOU CAPTIVE THROUGH PHILOSOPHY AND EMPTY DECEPTION, ACCORDING TO THE TRADITION OF MEN, ACCORDING TO THE ELEMENTARY PRINCIPLES OF THE WORLD, RATHER THAN ACCORDING TO CHRIST.” Colossians 2:6-8
“Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK THEM which CAUSES DIVISIONS and OFFENSES CONTRARY TO THE DOCTRINE which you have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but THEIR OWN BELLY; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” Rom 16:17-18
“I solemnly charge you (CHRIS,) in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: PREACH THE WORD; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. FOR THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; BUT WANTING TO HAVE THEIR EARS TICKLED, THEY WILL ACCUMULATE FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS IN ACCORDANCE TO THEIR OWN DESIRES.” 2 Timothy 1-3
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While we need to be gracious to one another and tolerant of disagreement over disputable matters, WE CANNOT ACCEPT HERESY. We are exhorted to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. (Jude 3).
Why do I think Chris is a heretic? A false teacher? There are a number of reasons, but this one takes the cake – his You Tube reply to Coupe:
“Coupe rocks! Write this stuff on the Ekklesia Blog, this is MONEY! Amen brotha! Amen!”
And then he writes HERE: “I’d like to ask everyone to post these comments, and others on the actual iFart blog page. One of the big factors in determining the winner is based on the comments/blogs that people post.”
Um, Chris…didn’t you say here on this site that entering this contest WASN’T about the $5,000 prize?? So what does that make you?
Besides being a FILTHY JESTER, a LIAR maybe? An COVETOUS IDOLATOR maybe? A FALSE TEACHER maybe? And SEEKING PRAISE AND FLATTERY?
Let’s find out more of GOD’S OPINION on this all this.
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“What is desirable in a man is his kindness, And it is BETTER TO BE A POOR MAN THAN A LIAR.” Proverbs 19:22
“A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will perish.” Proverbs 19::9
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.” Matthew 6:24
“For we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor with a pretext for GREED – God is witness, nor did we SEEK GLORY from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.” 1 Thessalonians 2:5:6
“Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.” Proverbs 29:20
“Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.” Proverbs 26:12
“A fool’s lips bring strife, And his mouth calls for blows.” Proverbs 18:6
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The word “fool” and the word “moron” share the same base word in Greek:- “moros”… Look it up, Chris.
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“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.” Matthew 24:11
“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.” 2 Peter 2:1
“and in their GREED they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. “ 2 Peter 2:3
“’I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you PUT TO THE TEST THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES APOSTLES, and they are NOT, and you found them to be FALSE.” Revelation 2:2
“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE ALSO; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. “ Revelation 20:10
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Course jesting, filthiness, and silly talk. Lies and deception. Seeking praise and flattery. Greed, mammon worship, and idolatry.
Wow. And the pastor has to ask US to prove him wrong through scripture! HOW COULD HE HAVE MISSED ALL OF THIS???
Be a Berean, people… “Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, EXAMINING THE SCRIPTURES DAILY TO SEE IF THESE THINGS WERE SO.” ~ Acts 17:11
Want to know why ALL OF YOU should do this?
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, BUT TEST THE SPIRITS to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. “ 1 John 4:1
AND…
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits…..
” ‘Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ AND THEN I WILL DECLARE TO THEM, `I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ ” Matthew 7:15-23
Think about it. Do you really want to follow someone who has to ASK someone to prove him wrong through scripture…and is CLEARLY on the path to destruction???
“Enter through the NARROW GATE; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow THAT LEADS TO LIFE, and there are FEW who find it.” Matthew 7:13-14
“Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14
“Hear, you deaf! And look, you blind, that you may see.” Isaiah 42:18
Sorry Chris, but GOD’S “opinion” is MY “opinion.”
God’s “bias” is my “bias.” It is my “passionate commitment” to the TRUTH of God’s Word.
I don’t see good fruit. I don’t see a true anointing.
I see a wolf.
Heavy-hearted prayers going out to you all, especially Chris.
Since some of you, including Chris, have asked how to lead people to Christ, (and it works with ANY age, by the way,) …I will submit that in my next post….FAIL-PROOF LEADERSHIP.
Monday, 22. June 2009
Okay. So you want to know what FAIL-PROOF leadership really is? Have a listen – it’s a two-part sermon FROM MY PASTOR TO YOU. Listen carefully, Chris – you will hear where you have failed – many times over.
Part One – posted June 15, 2009:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=6/15/2009
Part Two – posted June 16, 2009:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=6/16/2009
I attend a conservative church that is dynamic, vibrant and alive with God’s anointing! It is ANYTHING BUT DEAD! My beloved pastor, John MacArthur, is a VERY well-known expository preacher who has congregation of at least 12,000, (I’m guessing,) with at least 10 or 12 Associate Pastors on site preaching other sermons in several other buildings. He has a world-wide radio and television ministry, (“Grace To You” at http://www.gty.org,) is President of both The Master’s College, a Christian college, (Second in the West in Academic Standards of Excellence only to the Naval Academy,) AND The Master’s Seminary, turning out around 400 expository preachers every year, hosts a Shepherd’s Conference every year (this year 3,000 pastors from around the globe were in attendance,) and he has written over 160 books – including an entire Commentary Series on the New Testament, (four of them on Matthew alone.) AND, despite his MASSIVE ministry, I know firsthand that he has cared deeply for, and lovingly watched over, his own flock – and has done so in the same location for over 40 years. If the main sanctuary gets too crowded, or people just want to enjoy the outdoors, they can sit in the large, beautifully landscaped courtyard and listen to the sermon over speakers hidden throughout the area. There is also an elementary/junior high school on site, and a bookstore that ships internationally – Grace Books, International. There are ministries for all our youth, from birth to college, a Spanish-speaking ministry, a ministry for the handicapped and those with special needs, and interpreters for the hearing-impaired. We have a 70-person choir, world-renown soloists, like Jubilant Sykes, and about a 30-piece orchestra, know to be some of the finest music to be found in any church, and perhaps the kind of praising worship music we will hear and sing in heaven. It is truly divine! The congregation gave 2.2 million dollars last year, just to support our missionaries, and that is above and beyond tithes and offerings.
He’s also managed to accomplish the monumental task of writing his own Study Bible, which has been translated into several languages, most recently Arabic.
I’d say that’s an ASTOUNDING track record for leading people to Christ – people of ALL ages and backgrounds. He is very, very WISE, very, very DEEP, and very, very HOLY – truly an anointed man of God to have grown such a faithful flock and worldwide ministry. Wouldn’t you agree?
My pastor is also VERY well-known for having the “testicular fortitude” to expose heresy. I must have picked up on some of that. Being an extremely well-educated scholar and top theologian, he doesn’t need to REDUCE HIMSELF to such course joking about farting that you do to gain wealth, although he is not without humor and love.
You would be wise then Chris, to take heed to John MacArthur. I don’t know of any modern day pastor who has done it better and as you SHOULD know, “Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.” Proverbs 27:17
“For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? Mark 8:36
Tuesday, 23. June 2009
I wish to highlight a scripture I posted earlier.
“Therefore BE IMITATORS OF GOD, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.”
A “FRAGRANT AROMA.” Chris has offered himself up as a fart. Apparently the definition of “fragrant” has taken on new meaning.
Tuesday, 23. June 2009
Hi, Yes Paul quoted a dead guy or two. He went to school didn’t he? The point isn’t that he included a couple of passing remarks from secularists. The point is that he excluded so much in favor of Divine Inspiration.
Tuesday, 23. June 2009
We’ve come to a point, in “so-called” Christianity, where people who want to be known as Christians, mock through humor-whether intentional or not, the most holy, pure, and divine Being we shall ever know. For what? To bring the world’s attention to this same Person? Now that is a joke.
Why don’t you “jokers” read the New Testament and show any of us who are upset with this mess of yours where any apostle or any true friend treated Jesus with such abuse as you have in this video. You won’t be, but you ought to be ashamed. But I think this modern-day church has lost the ability to be ashamed of anything.
God help us that the church will be left in the hands of people like you.
Tuesday, 23. June 2009
you said:
“We’re using the same strategy the Apostle Paul used when he arrived in Athens (Acts 17:16-34). He effectively engaged culture on their level first, by referring to their idols and famous poets, then he introduced the Athenians to Biblical truth.”
It is such a supreme tragedy that you would attempt to extend that passage to somehow giving approval to such a puerile stunt!
According to your seriously flawed logic then that passage could be extended to say it would be alright to enter a streaking contest or a stipping contest if those were cultural norms so you could connect with people according to their cultural norms and then give them the gospel!
What an absolute joke you are! your a disgrace to the name of Christ!
here is a passage for you:
1 Corinthians 13:11:
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
What your doing is a childish vulgar stunt! your an adult now and supposedly a Christian Leader which means you should be far past childish things.
The culture today focuses on the perpetuity of immaturity into adulthood creating perpetual children. I am certain the Apostle Paul would not have entered a childish farting contest in the name of Christ!
Tuesday, 23. June 2009
@Passiflora101
Wow…Do you follow Jesus or Johnny Mac?
Having watched John on many occasions and listened to his podcast I can say without a doubt he is one of the best preachers for americanized isogesis christianity I’ve ever heard.
Additionally I know for a fact you found this site through CRN.com which is the largest group of pharisees I’ve ever met.
Continue to wash the outside of the cup. That’s what’s most important.
Wednesday, 24. June 2009
Chris,
First off, you could take some time and learn what it means to show double honor to those who preach the Word of God. If you are young, as I presume you to be, you could also learn to show respect toward your elders who are in the universal Body of Christ.
Secondly, you do not spell eisegesis isogesis. But your lack of preparedness here likely shows how well you prepared to reply to Passiflora101. I’ve listened to John MacArthur for years. If anyone can be accused of eisegesis, it is not Dr. MacArthur. To help you get your facts straight, maybe you could use a bit more mental isometrics.
I pose a similar question to you, “Do you follow Jesus or do you follow the immaturity that is becoming the norm of the modern church and those who are filling its pulpits? You don’t need to answer that question. It is rhetorical.
You don’t know me and you don’t know “for a fact” how I came upon this site. I’m saddened that I did find it. I shall not return again. I will not listen to those who mock the holy name of Jesus in the claim it is for the cause of evangelism. How absurd!
I am ashamed of you all. I am praying God will exonerate His Son’s name with each of you, for you have laid it low. I can’t tell you how offensive it is to hear such talk being carried on about Jesus. I would not want to walk in your shoes if God decides to reveal what He thinks of your disregard toward His Son’s name.
These immature men (boys) who like to think of themselves as “called men of God,” who you defend, are a blight inside the church. Your actions remind me of a scripture that you need to hear and rightly take to heart.
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Wednesday, 24. June 2009
Flawed Logic?
Well I guess then Paul should have also never used the “sport” metaphors he did. It’s pretty historical that athletic events during his time were performed in the nude. It’s also very apparent that he attended such events. But lets not let historical Christianity get in the way of a good legalist tongue lashing.
I guess he missed the mark on this one as well
24Let no one (AN)seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.
25(AO)Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake;
26(AP)FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD’S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.
27If (AQ)one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, (AR)eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake.
28But (AS)if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake;
29I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for (AT)why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?
30If I partake with thankfulness, (AU)why am I slandered concerning that for which I (AV)give thanks?
31Whether, then, you eat or drink or (AW)whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
32(AX)Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to (AY)the church of God;
33just as I also (AZ)please all men in all things, (BA)not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, (BB)so that they may be saved.
Wednesday, 24. June 2009
Dr. Rev.,
Thank you for your kind reply. It was refreshing to hear such biblical retort. I mean you questioned my age, my intellect, my christian faith, and my spelling. Without using scripture at all. “What you do to the least…”Oh never mind. I can see you prefer Paulinian thought as opposed to the words of Jesus.
Thank you for the correction. One could argue that both eisegesis (into) and isogenesis (to produce) can be contexualized to mean the same things. But I digress. My apologies for misspelling the word. Sometimes I get confused between my theology and my profession. Which if I wanted to elevate myself would have my degrees listed in front of my name as well. But something about ‘decreasing so that He can increase’ prevents me from wanting to flout my credentials on a blog.
Not sure what you mean? Someone comes touting Dr. MacArthurs credentials and I should assume that they deserve respect? I’ve listened to JMac discuss virtual everything from War to Peace and quite frankly if doesn’t use eisegesis he certainly proof texts a bunch. But I should show him deference because he wrote a study bible? Universal Body of Christ? What is that exactly? Who’s in and who’s out? Should not the Pastor of Eklesia be shown the same courtesy?
Oh brother so much more, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to continue. Since you said you “I won’t be back” there is probably no need for anymore discussion.
Grace and Peace.
To the folks of Ekklesia keep on proclaiming the risen Christ and our freedom in Him. Blessings on your ministry. My apologies for disrupting your ministry with such trivial debate.
Wednesday, 24. June 2009
I’m listening to an audio book that dramatizes the life of Christ and the howls of outrage coming from zealots and Pharisees over Christ’s teachings probably sound very similar to their modern day counterparts I’m reading here.
Thursday, 25. June 2009
Does anyone get the same eerie feeling that I do – that this poster, who calls himself, “Chris (Not Chris Lambert)” is actually Chris Lambert – in cognito???
Doesn’t this “follower” seem to know a wee bit more than the average little lamb, reflecting a more intimate relationship with scripture – like maybe a “pastor” would? How many laypeople discuss eisegesis??? And then lay out a bunch of scripture? And why don’t people here add a full scripture quotation, to include the book, chapter & verse, SO THAT IT CAN BE EXAMINED?
It’s just so interesting that here we have a “Chris (not Chris Lambert,)” who stands in staunch defense of a pastor who is “conspicuously absent”…AND YET…these angry posts were posted on the same day as the even-tempered “Chris” posted in the Praise & Rebuke blog.
Is this your alter-ego, Lambert? Your split-personality? Your evil twin, the venter, who always has to be right?
Ummm…serpent with forked tongue?
Anyone can have two screen names at the same website. I did that once a while back. I could carry on a conversation with myself…lol. “We” conversed with atheists, so “we” were on the same side of the fence – strength in numbers.
Another thing I find interesting. “Chris (not Chris Lambert)” evaded all the scriptures I posted from the Bible…and went straight to John MacArthur. And then to Pastor Diehl’s comments.
A human is an easier target that the Word of God.
Cry “legalist!!!” or “Pharisee!!” or “zealot!!” all you want at any of us. You can whine on and on to the sensible, sound Pastor Diehl, and take potshots at MacArthur, but you just can’t get your mind around truth.
This is the same sort of EVASIVE behavior “Chris” displayed in the “Praise & Rebuke” today. (Well…yesterday, now.)
There’s no getting around what the Bible says. You just don’t want to admit it that what I posted was a stunning slam-dunk case against “iFart.”
Too much truth in one sitting, and we are now zealots and legalists. YAY! Jesus was a zealot, too.
Hmmm….Will the real Chris show up? Or is he already here???
Pride. The most common sin there is.
So, umm…just what IS your profession, Mr. “Chris (not Chris Lambert)”? I’d really like to know. Maybe we have something in common.
Thursday, 25. June 2009
Passiflora 101,
I am indeed a Pastor. But not affiliated in any way with Ekklesia. My statements here are wholly mine. I’ve spoken with Pastor Lambert via telephone on Tuesday. Other than that we haven’t had any personal contact.
I find it spurious that both yourself and the Dr. Rev. feel free to launch accusations without any real proof. Which is exactly like the Pharisees. I assure you that I’m not a winebibber but I do hang out with sinners and tax collectors.
Feel free to email me at figsandherd@yahoo.com as I would love to correspond via email.
Thursday, 25. June 2009
Interesting…
Because you replied to me: “Additionally I know for a FACT you found this site through CRN.com which is the largest group of pharisees I’ve ever met.”
May I paraphrase you?
“I find it spurious that you feel free to launch accusations without any real proof. ” SO PROVE IT.
And ummm…doesn’t that make YOU a Pharisee? A hypocrite?
Some people SAY the things they need to HEAR the most.
LOL…I don’t even know what CRN is. I was planning to check it out late last night after seeing that “accusation” and making my other posts, but I got too tired.
I posted in another blog here also about how I know Chris Lambert. We met at a church I used to belong to here in California, before he went to Africa. Don’t believe me? Ask him. He put me on his e-mail list a long time ago – 4 years, maybe. Of the many photos he sends out, I remember the ones with the piles of skulls. There’s some evidence of connection to him other than CRN.
Did I make accusations about YOUR identity…or just ask mostly questions about Chris Lambert’s?
My accusations were that you “conveniently” neglected to comment about the many, many Bible verses about this “Purpose-Drivil” mess, and instead went after humans – Dr. MacArthur and Rev. Diehl.
Hard to attack the very Word you proclaim, isn’t it? My accusation, therefore, is appropriate.
Floating down “Denial?” So are you the iron that sharpens Chris – his mentor? Since you have the same name, and speak in pastoral terms, it’s easy to confuse you. I believe part of Pastor Diehl’s comments above were meant for Lambert as well.
And pssssst!! We are ALL sinners, and therefore, who else do we hang out with?
And who accused you of being a winebibber? Are you putting words into my mouth?
AREN’T ANY OF YOU GOING TO COMMENT ON THE SCRIPTURES? The Bible has defended itself from this church’s abuse of Christ!
“But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for YOU ARE NOT SETTING YOUR MIND ON GOD’S INTERESTS, BUT MAN’S.” Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33
Yeah…Peter thought HE knew what he was he was talking about, too!
HOW MANY WAYS TO YOU UNGODLY PEOPLE NEED TO BE TOLD???
Monday, 13. July 2009
@Passiflora101
(who contacted me on YouTube and gave me a link to this page)
No, I am not associated with this church (though I do see how one might come to that conclusion by my YouTube comments)
I do live in the area though, but that’s not relevant.
And yes I have read the Bible. Just thought I should throw that out there.
–to post #48
—
Why do I think Chris is a heretic? A false teacher? There are a number of reasons, but this one takes the cake – his You Tube reply to Coupe:
“Coupe rocks!? Write this stuff on the Ekklesia Blog, this is MONEY! Amen brotha! Amen!”
—
First, saying “that’s money” simply means it’s good, or has value. We call this “slang” I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it… Don’t read too deeply into stuff.
—
And then he writes HERE: “I’d like to ask everyone to post these comments, and others on the actual iFart blog page. One of the big factors in determining the winner is based on the comments/blogs that people post.”
Um, Chris…didn’t you say here on this site that entering this contest WASN’T about the $5,000 prize?? So what does that make you?
—
Could it possibly make him someone who would like to use this video he made (to reach the lost) more accessible to the lost? That’s what would happen if it won.
Also he could use the prize money to help spread the gospel. How do you know he wouldn’t donate it all to missions?
And he said “Not because we want to win the $5000, though of course that would be nice, but because we want to effectively communicate truth.”
How does that make him a liar or one who seeks praise?
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.” Luke 6:37
And while we are on this section of the post, why do you call him a “FILTHY JESTER”? All this scripture you quote about “filthiness and course jesting”…
Why is a simple fart noise “filthy” or “course”? It’s totally natural, and Jesus “passed gas” a few times in his life (he had a 100% human body, and that’s just how it works… HOW GOD HIMSELF CREATED IT). And I, along with lots of other people happen to think that the sound and smell is humorous. Does that mean I’m going to Hell because I snickered the last time someone “let one fly”? Or smelled a skunk on the way back from a church event, then said to my friend “Gee, man. How much Taco Bell did you have?!?”
I mean that happened in a church van! I MUST be in trouble!
If this video made say, a sexual joke about Jesus, then yes, I would fully agree that our Lord shouldn’t be portrayed in such a light.
You haven’t given any scripture as to how farting or making farting sounds is “filthy,” only your opinion that it is.
–To post #49
—
I attend a conservative church that is dynamic, vibrant and alive with God’s anointing! It is ANYTHING BUT DEAD! My beloved pastor, John MacArthur, is a VERY well-known expository preacher who has congregation of at least 12,000, (I’m guessing,) with at least 10 or 12 Associate Pastors on site preaching other sermons in several other buildings. He has a world-wide radio and television ministry, (“Grace To You” at http://www.gty.org,) is President of both The Master’s College, a Christian college, (Second in the West in Academic Standards of Excellence only to the Naval Academy,) AND The Master’s Seminary, turning out around 400 expository preachers every year, hosts a Shepherd’s Conference every year (this year 3,000 pastors from around the globe were in attendance,) and he has written over 160 books – including an entire Commentary Series on the New Testament, (four of them on Matthew alone.) AND, despite his MASSIVE ministry, I know firsthand that he has cared deeply for, and lovingly watched over, his own flock – and has done so in the same location for over 40 years. If the main sanctuary gets too crowded, or people just want to enjoy the outdoors, they can sit in the large, beautifully landscaped courtyard and listen to the sermon over speakers hidden throughout the area. There is also an elementary/junior high school on site, and a bookstore that ships internationally – Grace Books, International. There are ministries for all our youth, from birth to college, a Spanish-speaking ministry, a ministry for the handicapped and those with special needs, and interpreters for the hearing-impaired. We have a 70-person choir, world-renown soloists, like Jubilant Sykes, and about a 30-piece orchestra, know to be some of the finest music to be found in any church, and perhaps the kind of praising worship music we will hear and sing in heaven. It is truly divine! The congregation gave 2.2 million dollars last year, just to support our missionaries, and that is above and beyond tithes and offerings.
He’s also managed to accomplish the monumental task of writing his own Study Bible, which has been translated into several languages, most recently Arabic.
I’d say that’s an ASTOUNDING track record for leading people to Christ – people of ALL ages and backgrounds. He is very, very WISE, very, very DEEP, and very, very HOLY – truly an anointed man of God to have grown such a faithful flock and worldwide ministry. Wouldn’t you agree?
—
Must I remind you of the story of the widow who gave hardly anything as an offering, and Jesus said she gave more than the others who have large sums of money?
Why do you list all this? Large attendance numbers, millions given to missions, beautiful landscaping, the “finest music found in any church”…
that’s all nice stuff, but the churches in Jesus’ day didn’t have that. They met in the catacombs SEWERS, just a few people gathered together. Does this mean they get less “credit”?
Again, those are all nice things, not saying anything bad about it. But I find it interesting that you never mention how God’s Holy Spirit moves through your services, how your youth group is on Fire for Him, people speaking in other tongues like the day of Pentecost in every service.
I would rather meet around a garbage fire in an alley and truly feel God’s power and the Holy Spirit move than sit in a multi-million dollar campus and just hear nice music.
Why do you blame the people who made this video of trying to lift themselves up, while you list these things about the church and pastor you are associated with?
Then in post #59 call him (or someone who happens to be named Chris too) a ”serpent with forked tongue”?
Cause I mean it’s such a HUGE stretch of the imagination to think that there MIGHT be two pastors named Chris who hold the same views? Wow. My name happens to be Chris also, are you going to call me a serpent with a forked tongue too?
And as far as his posts being “angry”?… talk about the pot calling the kettle black, which you seem to know a lot about.
Monday, 13. July 2009
Yay. Another 12-year-old. Amazing how you managed to twist everything I said into what you want it to be and then misuse scripture to suit your purposes and skipped over the verses about marking heretics and appealing to culture. You asked the question on youtube and so I sent you here.
For the silly, cynical things you asked about as to whether or not you will go to hell for, I would have to say I doubt it. But follow a heretic and you will. Stop twisting, exagerating and being overly dramatic. None of it has anything to do with the discussion here.
Does “be in the world, but not of it” mean anything to you?
I am forever amused by the misuse of “judge not, lest ye be judged” argument.
“By Me princes rule, and nobles, All who judge RIGHTLY.” Proverbs 8:16
“Open your mouth, judge RIGHTEOUSLY, And defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.” Proverbs 31:9
“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the WAY you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:1-2
If I am standing in stalwart defense of scriptural truth, wearing the full armor of God, I am certain the Lord will say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” We are commanded by Him to expose heresy and to mark them. Further, the iFart contest was not the only heresy I found here.
The story of the widow’s mite is often misused and taken out of context by churches as a way of bilking the congregation out of money. Catholics are notorious for it. They dominate in Third World Countries and tell their parishoners it is the business of the priests to interpret the Bible – not the parishoners. So members of such churches get duped.
You have also taken the story out of context. To begin with, she didn’t give “hardly anything,” as you stated. She gave two coins – all she had, which shows she gave more than the others with more money.
TAKE NOTE: Jesus didn’t commend or praise the woman for doing so. You won’t find that in scripture. Sacrificial giving was NOT the point of the story. Jesus knew full well that as a result of what she gave, it would leave her destitute, and she would go home and probably die of starvation. What good would come of that?
CONSIDER THE CONTEXT! Jesus was on the way to the cross in a couple of days. All His miracles had been performed and His work was done. He was making it obvious to the Jews & Pharisees what hypocrites they were for expecting (guilting) people to give their money – and PUBLICLY in the Woman’s Court – an OPEN court – a court available not just to men, but women as well, while HE taught that one is to give whatever is on their heart, and that it’s between the giver and God – in PRIVATE. THAT was the point of the story of the widow’s mite – not praise for her sacrificial giving.
So what is YOUR point?
Using my church was simply an example of a ministry that has grown by leaps and bounds because it’s been faithful to scripture, and has nothing to do with the story of the widow’s mite. I don’t even understand why you brought it up, but obviously you don’t know the true meaning of the story.
The ministry obviously wouldn’t have grown as it has, had the Holy Spirit not been present. That’s a given the average Christian would automatically realize.
Most Christians believe speaking in tongues died with the Age of Miracles, after John wrote the last books and died in the first century. The people that practice it now are the far-out Pentecostal Charismatics, like those in the Word of Faith Movement, (all heretics – and much of which is based on the cultic practice of mysticism, similar to the book, “The Secret,” and the teachings of Eckhardt Tolle and Oprah Winfrey,) who don’t even practice it the way it was done in the Bible. It is also practiced by other religions, and wasn’t even considered one of the greatest of gifts.
Do you even know the history of Pentecostalism? Although followers will say that it dates back to the Day of
Pentecost, it actually began at the turn of the 20th century. Charismatic historians trace the modern day movement to a guy named Charles Fox Parham, a member of the “Holiness Movement,” who founded a small Bible college in Topeka, Kansas, called, “Bethel College.”
Parham had for years been impressed with the possiblity that glossolalia (speaking in tongues,) might be restored in the form of a foreign language facility granted to missionaries who would no longer have to take the time for language studies.
Parham also used a concordance to pick a topic of study. Never was an entire book of the Bible studied as a unit. Thus, no verse would ever have been considered as part of a larger context. (A prime example of that might be using the story of the widow’s mite to bilk the congregation – not taking into consideration what was happening before or after the incident, and thus out of context.) Sound hermeneutics and careful exegesis were impossible.
Bethel College closed its doors a year later, but that was the birth of the Pentecostal movement.
Sixty years later, the Charismatic movement was launched with the “experience” of a guy named Dennis Barnett, rector of St. Mark’s Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, CA.
The Charismatic movement bases it’s theology on emotion, phenomena, feelings, and experiences, such as in order to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, the initial evidence must be having the gift of tongues. Most Christians don’t speak in tongues or believe it’s a gift for today, so Pentecostals are essentailly saying that all other denominations don’t have the Holy Spirit. LOL…preposterous!
Pentecostalism was the last denomination formed. The Charismatics are a splinter of that denomination. My non-denominational church goes back to the days shortly after Martin Luther protested 1517- that of the Reformers of the 1500’s, like Calvin, Tyndale, Knox, Edwards, Wycliff, etc. The Reformationists got it right. Today it seems like “anything goes.”
So we need to clarify a little Biblical truth here.
There are only two basic approaches to Biblical truth. One is the historical, objective approach, which emphasizes God’s actions towards men and women as taught in scripture. The other is the personal, subjective approach, which emphasizes a human’s “experience” of God.
How should we build our theology? Should we go to the Bible – or to the experiences of thousands of people? If we go to the people, we will have as many views as there are individuals. And that’s exactly what is happening throughout the Charismatic movement of today. Utter chaos.
“Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.” 1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Until Jesus returns, we may have knowledge and the ability to prophecy in part, but where does it say we may speak in tongues? It doesn’t. They ceased. Since you brought it up, it sounds to me like you are following your own false teacher. It’s helpful to know church history.
The issue of the two Chris’s was cleared up in another blog here. And it appears that Rev. Diehl was confused by it as well. It was an honest mistake. If you go back and read what I wrote, I didn’t call him a serpent with a forked tongue. I ASKED him if he was because I believed he was one and the same person – someone who spoke with pastoral terminology not normally used by laypeople. Turned out it was another pastor. Easy to get confused. Don’t read more into it than is there. And try to hide your cynicism better.
How does Chris seek praise? Read the “Praise & Rebuke” blog. The money thing is obvious. No pastor seeking God’s will would ever make such a “excited” comment.
Anger has it’s place. Let’s not forget how very angry Jesus became when He turned the tables on the Moneychangers who had taken the house of worship and turned it into a den of thieves. Very applicable here. It’s called “righteous anger.” Ever heard of it? It’s a viable reaction to ungodly behavior, unbefitting of God’s people.
“When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.” 1 Corinthians 13:11
There are many ways to express Jesus’ humaness, such as “He wept.” Juvenile, scatological humor is not one of them. This is man-centered, culture-driven thinking that is so far from HOLINESS and an excruciating death for me, it makes me sad for the fools who buy into it. If there are any converts to come of it, I can’t help but wonder how long it will take them to get from filthy, childish, course joking (not “my” opinion,) to a recognition of their total depravity and thus the need for not only a Savior, but a Lord who will direct their steps – AWAY FROM A SINFUL WORLD and this type of culture-driven madness.
So in answer to your question, “Why do you blame the people who made this video of trying to lift themselves up, while you list these things about the church and pastor you are associated with?”…. I submit to you the words of Charles Spurgeon, (know who he is?) which I posted in another blog here:
“Jesus said, ‘Preach the gospel to every creature.’ But men are getting tired of the divine plan; they are going to be saved by a priest, going to be saved by the music, going to be saved by THEATRICALS, and nobody knows what! Well, they may try these things as long as ever they like, but nothing can ever come of the whole thing but utter disappointment and confusion, God dishonoured, the gospel travestied, hypocrites manufactured by the thousands, and the church dragged down to the level of the world.” (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, “Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit,” Volume 40, page 199, 1888)
“That very church which the world likes best is sure to be that which God abhors.” (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, “How Saints May Help The Devil,” July 24, 1859)
If this pastor had a true anointing and was filled with the Holy Spirit, and would just follow the Pastoral Epistles on how to build a church (and I doubt if he even knows which ones they are,) and PREACH THE WORD, instead of basing his doctrinal “strategy” on a few verses in Acts and his man-centered, culture-driven theatrics and silly contests, the evidence would be growth. We are known by our fruit. Simple as that. How long before his “converted” fruit rots – and falls away?
I personally met this pastor a few years ago, here in California – at a church that wasn’t growing. He was a nice enough guy, as was the pastor of that church, but just being “nice” doesn’t get us into heaven.
I just heard today that only 25% of Christians read their Bible daily. Yeah. And Jesus said, the path to destruction is wide, and the gate that leads to Life is narrow which few will find, and many will call Him Lord, but He will tell them He never knew them. Perhaps it is those that don’t really take the time to know Him and enter into a personal, one-on-one relationship with Him, but rather lean on pastors, who might just be wolves in sheep’s clothing, never examining the scriptures “with great eagerness to see if these things were so.” (Acts 17:11.)
TEST THE SPIRITS and know your church history, lest you follow false teachers into the pit.
Tuesday, 14. July 2009
I’m 19, you were only 7 years off, not too bad of a guess, but you could have just looked at my YouTube profile. (Yes, I know it was sarcasm that you were using. lol)
Oh, by the way, I’m curious if you are a pastor or Bible scholar, just wondering.
Anyway, I wasn’t attempting to “twist” anything. And I’m sorry that I missed addressing a few things in your posts. They were quite long and I was tired, as I was up quite late at the time. You don’t have to be so quick to assume that I had such devious intentions. That’s why I used the “judge not, lest ye be judged” argument. You have already made up in your mind that I have only bad intentions. You have “pre-judged” me.
As you quoted, “Open your mouth, judge RIGHTEOUSLY”
Oh, and when I mentioned that you sent me a link on YouTube to this site in my last post, I was just letting anyone else that reads this know how I came across this page. And also why I addressed you specifically. I’m not sure how you interpreted that.
And I’m glad you did send me a link, as no one else really actually attempted to explain anything. They didn’t have the “testicular fortitude” to use the same term as you did in post #49, to try to make any real argument. (That, and the character count limit on video comments, along with blocking links posted in them didn’t help. lol)
But the term you used, “testicular fortitude,” it is a reference to the male genitalia, and how the hormones they produce (namely testosterone) make one tend to act in a more bold or aggressive manor… A totally natural function of the body that God designed.
This is actually fairly closely related to flatulence, as it’s another totally natural function of the body.
Why is it okay to use the term “testicular fortitude” instead of using some other word or phrase, such as saying, “My pastor is also VERY well-known for having the “boldness” to expose heresy.”?
Isn’t this somewhat “course” or “filthy” as it is a reference to (and somewhat of a joke about) sexual organs?
If it’s okay to say “testicular fortitude” why is it wrong to also make a joke about the digestive system? Flatulence is a normal by-product of digestion. I don’t find the design of the human body disgusting at all. God designed it in an amazingly beautiful (and sometimes even humorous) way.
And that was my original question on YouTube, I wanted to know what was wrong with the content of the video, namely this big issue people seem to have with flatulence.
-And while I’m thinking of it, I did hear the original broadcast of the video on the Bob Dutko Show, as I try to listen to it when I can [http://wmuz.com/] you can listen to the station there, and read about Bob’s show. Anyway, all the negative comments were similar to the ones in this discussion board. No reason other than saying it was disgusting and disrespectful, no real points made other than people’s opinions that farts are “dirty” and “disrespectful”
That is why the things I said about fart jokes have everything to do with the discussion here.
And as far as appealing to culture, and being “in the world, but not of it”…
the main verse you listed that actually applied to my original question was Romans 8:5-8
“For those who live ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (as in CULTURE,) SET THEIR MINDS ON THE THINGS OF THE FLESH, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. FOR TO SET THE MIND ON THE FLESH IS DEATH, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. FOR THE MIND THAT IS SET ON THE FLESH IS HOSTILE TO GOD, FOR IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW; INDEED, IT CANNOT. THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD.” (New American Standard)
In the New International Version, it is translated,
“5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.”
And that’s what “be in the world, not of it” means to me. We are in this world, but not of it because we do not live according to our sinful nature. And this goes back to my original question. How is a fart joke sinful?
And as far as appealing, or reaching out to our culture, it has to be done to a limited extent. As long as we aren’t sinning or compromising our faith in the process of course.
A simple example of what I mean would be radio, television, or recently the internet.
You simply CAN NOT deny that radio, television, and the internet are a HUGE part of our culture today. And you said in post #49 that your church has a world-wide radio and television ministry. And you are also using the internet to communicate on this discussion board. This is using part of our culture to reach people. (As opposed to only walking up to someone, and sharing the Gospel that way.)
Does this mean having a television or radio ministry is sinful? I don’t think it is, and apparently you don’t either.
And by the same reasoning, just because our culture makes fart jokes, doesn’t mean it is sinful for Christians to do so either.
Now I’m not saying that because our culture makes, say, perverted sexual jokes that it is okay for us [Christians] to do so. That would be sinning, as they are always fueled by lust, which IS pointed out in scripture (quite clearly) to be sin.
(God did create sex [for within marriage only of course], and discussing it in a clean manor must be done, or our youth will go about learning from the world. But that’s a whole separate issue, for a different forum. I do believe we can find some clean humor in it though.)
Before I continue, I would like to clarify that we are thinking of the same definition of “heresy” as it seems to be your favorite word to use.
—
1 a: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma b: denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church c: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma2 a: dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
—
I am only seeking truth here. I do not want to make my own so-called “truth”. That is why I am having this discussion, because I am open to the fact that I could be wrong. Also, just because something isn’t the “dominant theory, opinion, or practice” doesn’t mean it’s not truth. Truth will be truth no matter what anyone believes.
You asked later in your last post how we should build our theology. I believe that we should go to the scriptures, and that they are the whole word of God.
Now on to the Widow’s Mite story (man this is going to be a long reply, sorry about that, I just want to address everything. lol)
When I said she gave “hardly anything” I meant it was “hardly anything” compared to the monetary value of what others gave, I probably should have made that a little clearer, but as I said, I was kind of tired at the time.
It’s obvious she didn’t give as much as far as monetary value is concerned.
“Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins”
Then we read verses 43-44
“43Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury;
44for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”
I never said, nor implied that Jesus was trying to say that we all should give all we have. As you said, “He taught that one is to give whatever is on their heart, and that it’s between the giver and God” perhaps God put it on the widow’s heart to give all she had? Jesus, being fully God, would know whether or not she would starve as a result of giving the last she had (which wouldn’t buy much food anyway).
The story of in Elijah 1 Kings 17 comes to mind, in verses 1-6 God provides bread and meat to him, via air mail. Talk about God delivering on his promises.
Then in verses 7-16 God sends Elijah to a Widow and her son. In verse 12 she says “As surely as the LORD your God lives,” she replied, “I don’t have any bread—only a handful of flour in a jar and a little oil in a jug. I am gathering a few sticks to take home and make a meal for myself and my son, that we may eat it—and die.”
She is literally on the verge of starvation, yet when she gives greatly to Elijah, God provides for her and her son, her flour and oil do not run out.
If God had called the Widow to give her last two coins, He surely would provide for her.
And in the story of the Widow’s Mite, we read “43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others.”
If Jesus said that about me, I know I would take it as a compliment.
We know she obviously didn’t give more cash than them, as I said before. So He can only be referring to the fact that she sacrificed more. “44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.” (Or “ 44for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.” In the NAS Bible)
This means that the monetary value of what you give isn’t as important as how much you give of what you have. The other people gave out of the excess [surplus] they had. But the widow had faith and gave what most would say she couldn’t afford to give. (Again, we don’t know that God didn’t lay that on her heart.)
That was my point.
—
“The ministry obviously wouldn’t have grown as it has, had the Holy Spirit not been present. That’s a given the average Christian would automatically realize.”
—
There are lots of things that grow quickly without the Holy Spirit present. Not saying your church doesn’t have the Holy Spirit with it. I don’t know enough about it to.
You mentioned Oprah in your post. Her show and audience grew quite quickly.
But the fact that things can grow quickly without the Holy Spirit should be a given that the average Christian would know.
—
“Most Christians believe speaking in tongues died with the Age of Miracles, after John wrote the last books and died in the first century.”
—
Again, just because something isn’t the “dominant theory, opinion, or practice” doesn’t mean it’s not truth.
Why do you believe that speaking in other tongues (as practiced in the Bible) died?
You quote 1 Corinthians 13:8-13
“Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.”
And say, “…where does it say we may speak in tongues? It doesn’t. They ceased.”
It also says gifts of prophecy and knowledge will be “done away.”
or in the NIV it says, “But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.”
So by your reasoning regarding speaking in other tongues, we also cannot prophecy, or even have knowledge for that matter.
Also, don’t take this verse out of context, as you claim I do. This, if you read the whole chapter, is about love. It is saying, as in verses 1-3,
“1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.”
All the things you do mean nothing, if you do not have love.
-And after I read some of your posts in the “Praise & Rebuke” blog, I noticed you said “I have no love for false teachers; only the sheep that are being led to the slaughter.”
Are not the false teachers souls in need of Christ as much as the sheep being lead to the slaughter?
I recall someone saying “Love your enemies.”
—
“The Charismatic movement bases it’s theology on emotion, phenomena, feelings, and experiences, such as in order to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, the initial evidence must be having the gift of tongues. Most Christians don’t speak in tongues or believe it’s a gift for today, so Pentecostals are essentailly saying that all other denominations don’t have the Holy Spirit. LOL…preposterous!”
—
Or perhaps you misunderstand. Think of the Holy Spirit as water. You can have water with you, carry some in a bottle, for example. But when you are baptized in water, you are dunked in it, fully immersed. When you are baptized in water, you WILL feel it. (Especially if the water is cold! lol, but kidding aside, I continue)
It’s the same with the Holy Spirit. You can have Him with you without being baptized in the Holy Spirit. But when you are baptized in and filled with the Holy Spirit, you are fully immersed in Him, you feel His Spirit, and it is literally beyond description by words that were created by man.
This is one of the reasons why you get to use a special language!
This is quite a personal one-on-one relationship with Him.
And as far as scripture to support it..
Acts 1:8, which is the name sake of our youth group (OneEight Youth)
“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Acts 19:1-7
“1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all”
There are many more, Acts is about the Holy Spirit and the many gifts of the Spirit, and speaking in other tongues is plainly one of them. It’s also mentioned in other books.
“That very church which the world likes best is sure to be that which God abhors.”
The purpose of the video was to bring people to Christ, or at least get them thinking about Him.
If a person is lead to Christ, he is part of the church, not the world. If he likes the church, and is part of it, that doesn’t count as the world liking it.
The whole “Chris” / “Chris (not Lambert)” thing, it didn’t confuse me at all. It seemed fairly obvious to me that “Chris (not Lambert)” was putting the “(not Lambert)” after his name so people wouldn’t confuse him with plain “Chris.”
This might be because “Chris” is a somewhat common name, and I have a friend named Chris, so maybe I’m just used to having to state that I’m not the “Other Chris” so to speak. There could be another reason too, I don’t really know.
And the way you “asked” him the questions (I do know what question marks are, I did pass the first grade) about being a “forked tongue serpent” and the “alter-ego” stuff, it seemed to be asked in a very accusing way.
Maybe it’s the limitations of communicating through text, but you asked one question after another about the same subject, as one would when interrogating someone.
Where you simply could have asked, “Hey, “Chris (not Lambert),” are you actually Chris Lambert in disguise?” or something along those lines, then maybe added the web-standard sign of a light-hearted statement, “lol.”
Besides, why would anyone, say “John (Doe)” who goes by the screen name “John” make other posts as “John (not Doe)”? It would make more sense to use the name “Bob” (or other random name).
But whatever, if you guys got it sorted out, then I guess it can be water under the bridge lol.
Uhh, I think I covered everything? Man, that’s a lot lol.
Sorry if I missed something, and if I did, I would appreciate you kindly pointing it out, and not accusing me of trying to dodge anything.
Tuesday, 14. July 2009
You know, I just noticed this, and it may just be my imagination, but when Chris (not Lambert) posted (#54)
——–
@Passiflora101
Wow…Do you follow Jesus or Johnny Mac?
Having watched John on many occasions and listened to his podcast I can say without a doubt he is one of the best preachers for americanized isogesis christianity I’ve ever heard.
Additionally I know for a fact you found this site through CRN.com which is the largest group of pharisees I’ve ever met.
Continue to wash the outside of the cup. That’s what’s most important.
——–
Note “@Passiflora101″ and “Additionally I know for a fact you found this site through CRN.com”
Then Rev. Dr. G. R. Diehl replies (#55)
——–
“You don’t know me and you don’t know “for a fact” how I came upon this site.”
——–
And Passiflora101 did admit that he has posted on the same forum under two names before… And both did appear at about the same time…
Lol, maybe I’m just tired, and it was an honest mistake on Dr. G. R. Diehl’s part that he thought Chris (not Lambert) was talking to him and Passiflora101. (And i really am considering that as a possibility.)
Wednesday, 15. July 2009
Hmmm…. A lot to address here. Won’t be doing it all in one post.
“THERE MUST BE NO FILTHINESS AND SILLY TALK, OR COARSE JESTING, WHICH ARE NOT FITTING…”
Um…you conveniently left something out of your scripture quote…”silly talk.” That would mean humor, right?
This is a prime example of twisting. Extracting what you want out of scripture.
“Testicular fortitude” was a term I heard a well-known pastor with a large congregation use on a Christian radio commentary. Obviously, it has to do with courage, strength, and conviction, and it was in reference to a serious matter having to do with standing up to unrighteousness – as does my pastor. Hardly a silly matter.
But to compare the use of it to making a video of Jesus selling an iPod/iTouch application that relates to what most consider an embarrassing bodily process is a real stretch on your part. More twisting. I just can’t think of Jesus as “selling” anything but Himself, let alone a juvenile product having to do with scatology. Somewhere in there, His glory, majesty, and omnipotence got lost. Of course, at your age, you will fail to see that.
“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.” Galatians 6:7-8
Can’t get any clearer than that.
Regarding speaking in tongues…
Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.
The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8); Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24); the apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).
Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.
After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).
The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are 6 proofs that it has already ceased:
1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.
2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest Epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned (although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy, the Greek word translated prophecy mean “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future).
3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.
4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).
5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.
6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2.As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.
The reasons stated above are evidence that the sign gifts have ceased, most particularly speaking in tongues. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.
And remember – The revival of speaking in tongues began in a small college in 1900 – a college that was closed a year later. That’s 1,800 years after they ceased. It’s kind of like Mohammed coming along in 610AD with his “visions,” (but no miracles,) quoting Jesus in the Quran around 120 times, but then years later, Muslim scholars discover that the Koran doesn’t quite match up with what the Bible taught, so they labeled the Bible corrupt. One “latter day prophet” compared to another “latter day prophet.” And when you think about it, we can add Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, David Koresh and Jim Jones to that particular list. Many others as well.
“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.” Matthew 13:22
Where does the Bible say to love false teachers? You are arguing for the sake of argument.
And are you “pre-judging” my church? By the fact that you are a believer in speaking in tongues, you place great emphasis on “the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by the speaking in tongues.” By your measure, no other denomination has the Holy Spirit, simply because all other denominations don’t speak in tongues. You are of the minority, although unfortunately, since people want “experiences” as I mentioned earlier, it’s a fast growing movement.
Do you also believe in the doctrine of “positive confession?”
And what’s with all the “lol’s?” Do you think you’re funny? Do you think this matter is funny?
“When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest.” Proverbs 29:9
But my, my! For a teenager, you sure seem to know a lot! But isn’t that always the case? I’ll try to get to the rest of this later. 3D is pretty busy.
So before I go any further, could you please explain to me what “sanctification” means? I’ll try to get to the rest of this later.
Wednesday, 15. July 2009
I would like to thank the makers of this video. I believe it is absolutely great, and a wonderful use of today’s technology. I am praying that this video will be useful in exposing unbelievers to God’s truth. I have been looking for a new church, and I was linked to the “Satan Hates Ekklesia” video today through an email from my current church. A complete God moment! I look forward to Sunday’s service.
Also, I do laugh at fart jokes. My brother has the iFart application, and it is positively hilarious. I even laugh at real farts when it is appropriate. It is in no way childish, since adults fart also.
Wednesday, 15. July 2009
I forgot to add one more thing!
Whether or not it was the last supper, it seems as though the commenters need some clarification.
Roosters crow throughout the day. So it is possible that a rooster crowed at every meal the disciples had with Jesus.
I’ll never forget sitting through a church service in Mexico, listening to the rooster crow ever few minutes for over an hour.
Wednesday, 15. July 2009
Wow, Sarah, thank you so much for sharing that. I’m a part of the video ministry at Ekklesia and, without going into detail, I was acting like a brat today. I allowed the mundane day to day things to affect my behavior, thus taking it out on other people and limiting the glory to God.
Your first comment really puts it into perceptive and humbles me. Please seek me out on Sunday so I can shake your hand and personally welcome you.
Wednesday, 15. July 2009
Sarah, I’m personally very encouraged to hear how this video has impacted you. Thank you for taking the time to tell us this good news. My wife and I are looking forward to meeting you!
Thursday, 16. July 2009
Haha, yeah, I freely admit that was a long post, and don’t mind it being replied to in more than one post.
So are you flat-out saying that you think humor is wrong? (Please inform me on what kind of humor you deem acceptable, if any.)
This is a PRIME reason non-Christians don’t want to be any part of the church. And honestly, if I thought Christians were against any humor, I wouldn’t either. They see no joy in us. Which is one of the Fruits of The Spirit. If they don’t see that we are happy to serve Christ, it is only logical to think that it must not be all that great.
And this IS the main view on Christianity in our secular society as Chris said in the “ReJesus” intro video (I didn’t see the sermon videos of it, so I can’t comment on their content. But I fully agree with what was said in the intro.) I don’t know if it’s different in the area you live, but I know that’s the way it is here in the Metro Detroit area, as well as many other places. And Detroit needs Jesus as much as any other city.
-Another reason I hear about a lot is that Christians are always judging, more than they show love. Not saying we shouldn’t talk about what Jesus saved us from, which is judgment and eternity in Hell, because if Jesus didn’t save us from anything, there would be no point in following Him. But we should also let them know WHY He saved us, which is because His love for us is so great.
Anyway, continuing…
You quote Ephesians 5:4 from the New American Standard Bible.
“4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting…”
—-By the way, I think you asked somewhere where a good place to look up Bible verses was. I use biblegateway.com
They have like 102 different translations (22 in English.)—-
First, you still never really explained why a “fart” joke is “filthy” or “coarse,” I will get to that later…
If we look up “silly” in the dictionary, we find this:
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1archaic : HELPLESS, WEAK 2 a: RUSTIC, PLAIN b obsolete : lowly in station : HUMBLE 3 a: weak in intellect : FOOLISH b: exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment c: TRIFLING, FRIVOLOUS4: being stunned or dazed
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Then for clarity, “foolish”:
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1: lacking in sense, judgment, or discretion 2 a: ABSURD, RIDICULOUS b: marked by a loss of composure : NONPLUSSED 3: INSIGNIFICANT, TRIFLING
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So, I think this really means that we shouldn’t talk in a foolish manor. “Lacking in sense judgment, or discretion.”
And the KJV backs this up:
“4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting…”
This isn’t really humor. But “jesting” is used in the KJV.
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Jest:
“1: an utterance (as a jeer or quip) intended to be taken as mockery or humor2 a: PRANK b: a ludicrous circumstance or incident3 a: a frivolous mood or manner b: gaiety and merriment4: LAUGHINGSTOCK”
—-
Humor is part of the definition of “jesting” so here is its definition:
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“3 a: that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous b: the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous c: something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing”
—-
In the NAS, it says “coarse jesting” which I agree that we should not participate in.
For the definition of “jest” of course we are not to make a mockery (or laughingstock) of Christ. And I don’t see that happening in this video.
For “humor” (I don’t think its talking about ice cream, so, I won’t talk about that lol)
Is it wrong to notice things one finds comical or amusing? I just notice these things, (like the ice cream thing) or wood peckers, for example.
They blink with every peck at the tree (or w/e they are pecking at) because if they didn’t close their eyes on impact, they would 1, get wood chips in their eyes as they can’t make safety glasses for themselves. And also, the g-forces would force their eyeballs out of their sockets! So their eyelids are much like seatbelts for their eyes! I find that funny. There is nothing dirty about it (I challenge you to find something) it’s just God’s design, a quite wonderful one. They also have a layer of cartilage between there beak and skull. In other birds the beak and skull are directly attached to each other. The cartilage acts as a shock absorber so the bird doesn’t get a concussion and kill or incapacitate itself. That is also kind of funny to me.
AND their tongue is long enough to wrap around there head; they use it to pull insects out of wood by spearing them. Of course if the tongue was simply sitting in their mouth like ours is, they would either have it hanging out all the time and have it get severed when pecking, or choke on it and die. It is actually wrapped around there skull.
And as I think of this, I am in awe at God’s amazing design, and how wise he is. Because you know if it was up to us humans to design a bird like this and get it right on the first try, we would have a bunch of birds with their eyeballs popped out of their head, and brains damaged due to a massive concussion. And this would all be before they had a chance to starve to death because they weren’t given the tools (long, spearing tongue) to actually get there food out of the wood! Well, unless we decided to give them the long tongue, but didn’t “install” it correctly, and the poor bird choked to death before it even got to start pecking. This is a great argument for intelligent design, because as I pointed out, if all these things aren’t done properly, the bird will die before it gets the chance to evolve.
Thinking of this is quite funny to me. And it’s not because I am mocking God or his creation, but because I am truly fascinated by it.
Praising God with humor. Imagine that.
So it would seem that humor in this sense is ok, but the “humor” that would be mocking Christ is obviously bad.
Well, I think I’m done with the little zoology lesson for today.
And by the way, I didn’t “conveniently leave it out.” As I did mention in my last post, if I missed something, I ASKED you to point it out. But you apparently didn’t read that, or obviously the part where I asked that you don’t accuse me of trying to dodge something just because I didn’t include it in my post. And you pointed it out, I did address it, because I wasn’t trying to dodge it in the first place. I don’t know how much clearer I can say that.
“Testicular fortitude”….
Its okay to use this phrase, and others like it, even if referencing sexual organs (which many people consider “dirty” and embarrassing to talk about) if a well-know pastor with a large congregation uses it? Again, I don’t condemn the use of the phrase or others like it, or well-known pastors with large congregations. That’s not my point.
But if you watch the “Did Jesus Fart?” video a few times, and study what is going on, (which you must to be able to say it’s bad) you will see that Jesus never mentions that you should buy an iPhone, or download the iFart app he never says how great or funny it is either. And yes, I do understand that it’s a commercial and meant to sell things, but he does say (and this is the point of the video) that he is fully God, and also fully man, really selling himself more than the iPhone or iFart app.
Also you mention that the omnipotence of Christ got lost. If you watch, you will see that Jesus knew that it was indeed Peter who farted at the end, even when he was one of two disciples to his right. Also the cock crowing (as Sarah pointed out, happens quite often and doesn’t mean it was the Last Supper) was a reference to when Peter denied Christ three times (you know the story) it was symbolic of Peter denying that he was the one that farted. The omnipotence and omniscience is not lost. You simply don’t notice things in the manor the youth today does. I don’t really expect you to (and I don’t have anything against you for it), as you aren’t part of the generation. But don’t condemn it until you understand it, because if you don’t understand it, you cannot say it is either good or bad.
To REALLY simplify what I mean, it’s much like when a child is first learning math. Until they grasp the concept of addition, they can’t truly make an educated decision as to whether or not 2+2 equals 3, 4 or maybe 5. But when the child does finally get it, they can say with certainty that 2+2 does in fact, equal 4.
–
“But to compare the use of it to making a video of Jesus selling an iPod/iTouch application that relates to what most consider an embarrassing bodily process is a real stretch on your part.”
–
And this goes back to my side of the argument that you have been denying all along. “WHAT MOST CONSIDER AN EMBARRASSING BODILY PROCESS”
It is only peoples OPINION that is it embarrassing or “dirty.”
Yes, if I have a little gas, I do try to umm… “Release” it in a manner that people won’t notice, especially among people I don’t know well.
But among my close friends, yes I still try not to make it too noticeable, but if a friend (and I’m referring to when it’s just the guys here) points it out, I will admit it, and laugh with him. I never feel that my friends are mocking me for it; we all know it’s just how the body works. Guys are that way, even adults (when the ladies aren’t around of course lol) because we are generally more logic-driven than women [please note I said GENERALLY, not always], and LOGIC says that there is nothing gross about flatulence (other than the smell, but you can t help that).
Jesus was with the disciples in this video, the disciples were his closest friends. And besides, he never actually farted in the video anyway. If this video is making fun of ANYONE, it would be Peter, who is quick to accuse Judas.
You list 1 Corinthians 13:8 here again when I already talked about it, yet don’t post what it says this time…. Is this a tactic to make is look like you have more verses against the gift of tongues, hoping I don’t actually look it up or notice it was the same one I already talked about? Or did you not actually fully read what I posted? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were simply strapped for time (as you said you had to reply in multiple posts) and simply overlooked it.
Anyway, on to the points you made.
4) It is implied that it is an inferior gift, though it doesn’t say anything against it.
“ 2For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.”
Speaking to God is prayer, when you pray to God, you don’t need others to understand it. It is a prayer language.
Also, if you read a little further to verses four and five…
“ 4One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
5Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.”
It says that one who speaks in a tongue edifies [instruct or improve spiritually] himself, who is a believer.
“5Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues”
Also, in verse five, “greater is the one who prophesies than the one who speaks in tongues, UNLESS HE INTERPRETS, so that the church may receive edifying.”
I have seen messages in tongues interpreted many times.
6) “If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school.”
You listed 1 Corinthians 14:1-3 that means 1 Corinthians 14:2 is in there also.
And as I already said, a direct quote mind you. “2For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God…” you say it is not for speaking to other people, then say that because there is a need for missionaries to attend language school because they can’t use the gift of tongues to communicate with people is “evidence” that the gift of tongues ceased.
Don’t contradict your own quoting of scripture, it may be an honest oversight, but it just looks bad.
Though I have heard stories of missionaries speaking in tongues and native peoples hearing there language when the missionary hasn’t learned the language, it wasn’t a whole sermon, or a continuous thing.
And I have heard many stories of people being healed, some without people praying in tongues, and some with. And some weren’t healed at all. My church never teaches that EVERY person WILL be healed, it’s ultimately up to God.
And 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1 do not speak against the gift of tongues, but is right among ones that would encourage it.
And what you quoted as Matthew 13:22 is actually Matthew 24:24
24″For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
I’m sure it was simply a typographical error, I have made a few myself, no big deal
23″Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25Behold, I have told you in advance. 26So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.”
This is referring to the second coming of Jesus, and false prophets. Of course, I am still waiting for Jesus to come again I know I haven’t been following any false Christs. And as for the false prophets, we are to test what they say to see that it aligns with scripture. And I have done that.
Because they still are a soul in need of God. I never said to love their teachings, of course we are to point it out and correct them.
If they are truly trying to lead people to God through Christ, but got a few things wrong, God will forgive them (as with other sins) when they truly repent, and of course start preaching the true Word of God.
Now if they are TRYING to lead people astray, that is a little different and God will deal justly with all sin.
But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t show love.
And no, I am not “pre-judging” your church. I explained my view on the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I said, and I quote directly from my last post,
———————-
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“The Charismatic movement bases it’s theology on emotion, phenomena, feelings, and experiences, such as in order to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, the initial evidence must be having the gift of tongues. Most Christians don’t speak in tongues or believe it’s a gift for today, so Pentecostals are essentailly saying that all other denominations don’t have the Holy Spirit. LOL…preposterous!”
—
Or perhaps you misunderstand. Think of the Holy Spirit as water. You can have water with you, carry some in a bottle, for example. But when you are baptized in water, you are dunked in it, fully immersed. When you are baptized in water, you WILL feel it. (Especially if the water is cold! lol, but kidding aside, I continue)
It’s the same with the Holy Spirit. You can have Him with you without being baptized in the Holy Spirit. But when you are baptized in and filled with the Holy Spirit, you are fully immersed in Him, you feel His Spirit, and it is literally beyond description by words that were created by man.
This is one of the reasons why you get to use a special language!
This is quite a personal one-on-one relationship with Him.
———————-
Read what I said before you accuse me of saying something I didn’t. I don’t have a perfect memory, but I’m not stupid.
Also, you say “it’s a fast growing movement”
When we are talking about Pentecostalism, it is because we want “experiences.”
But when we are talking about your church and how it has grown, it’s an obvious sign that the Holy Spirit is present… Interesting.
By “positive confession,” do you mean the idea that whatever you pray for with enough faith you WILL get?
If you do, then no I don’t.
If you meant something else, then tell me what it was, and I would be happy to answer.
In the KJV Proverbs 29:9 reads
“9If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.”
The meaning is a little different, but either way, I don’t disagree.
I wasn’t raging, just explaining my side.
But I think you were referring more to the laughing part, and I will explain that at the end of this post.
(Don’t worry, it IS coming. I’m going to get a reputation for having the longest posts on here! lol)
I kind of feel that I should say that you should try not to post stuff that would make it seem that you think of yourself as wise. As I mentioned on the YouTube comments for “Did Jesus Fart?” Proverbs 26:12 which you quoted in one of the posts here. Not really saying you do think of yourself as “wise” or anything, but it does seem to come across in a major way that you do, I don’t know if you even noticed that…
But I don’t know you personally, and there is a pretty good chance that it might be that we have different styles of communicating online.
I certainly hope it doesn’t come across that I think of myself as a “wise man” as I really don’t. (And when I do, I pray that God keeps me humble, we are all works in progress. And yeah, being a teenager probably doesn’t help much! lol)
(Oh, and what is “3D”? I’m not sure what you are referring to. It’s probably not important, but I’m pretty curious, I just like learning and understanding stuff lol.)
“Sanctification”? I’m sure you want to know what I personally think it means. Which is to be sanctified; to be set apart and pure for God.
And Mr. Merriam-Webster says:
1: to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use : CONSECRATE2: to free from sin : PURIFY3 a: to impart or impute sacredness, inviolability, or respect to b: to give moral or social sanction to4: to make productive of holiness or piety
As for what is with all the “lol”s…
“lol” does stand for “laugh/laughing out loud” but it doesn’t usually mean it literally anymore. I actually never “laughed out loud” while typing my last post, nor did I “laugh out loud” while typing this one. (Though I must admit I was smiling when thinking about the woodpecker stuff)
One time I did actually laugh out loud when watching a video a friend of mine posted, and I didn’t just say “lol” as we all know (those of us who communicate online frequently on sites such as Facebook, MySpace, and YouTube) that “lol” isn’t usually literal. I replied “that literally made me lol!”
As I mentioned in the last post (though didn’t fully explain the subject) “lol” is “the web-standard sign of a light-hearted statement.”
And believe me, there a lot of abbreviations and shortcuts I could be using (such as capitalization, who has time to press the SHIFT key anyway?). But I do want what I’m saying to be understood by people who don’t know many of them. (Unfortunately, many people on YouTube don’t really get that idea, I’m sure you’ve seen what I’m talking about! lol)
I hope that clears things up with that.
Oh, also, typing in all-caps is generally considered to be yelling. (though I was using it in place of bold-set font, as I don’t know if this forum allows basic HTML formatting… bold [b]bold[/b]… just checking there, lol)
–You can skip this paragraph unless you want to know about how websites are made. lol–
You mentioned somewhere that you didn’t know how websites were made, and HTML (hyper-text markup language) is a major part. Basically a lot of text with formatting code (I don’t know if you will see it in my bold testing thing, you won’t if it works.) but its more text that tells your web browser (Internet Explorer, Firefox, ect) what to do with the text within the formatting marks. I know it sounds confusing, but the basic stuff really isn’t…. Sorry for getting off subject, but leaning stuff never hurts anyone.
And lastly,
I just want to say that post #65 WAS really more of a joke than anything, I don’t want you to take it as a personal attack or accusation, it was nothing like that. I just found it to be a humorous coincidence.
Thursday, 16. July 2009
Hey Hunter, I’m impressed with your passion. I want to see your passion grow, and become even more effective. So, here’s a few words of advice…
Whenever you do something for the Kingdom of God that cuts against culture, you will face many critics. For example, Jesus ate with the big time sinners, including women who got paid to have lots of sex. The religious people thought, “Hey, why isn’t Jesus telling these people to repent, go to the temple, and offer sacrifices for their sins?” These religious people didn’t understand proper interpretation of Scripture, and their culture blinded them from reaching out the way Jesus intended.
That being said, remember how many times Jesus just walked away from critics? Sometimes He totally ignored them. Sometimes He changed the subject, and asked them new questions.
Interestingly, it seems like He attacked religious people’s ideologies less because He thought they would change, and more because He wanted non-religious people to see how the Kingdom of God looks nothing like their little games.
So, if a critic isn’t influencing many non-religious people, I will usually just ignore them.
If critics fit into these categories, then I often don’t respond to them:
1. if they don’t speak to me in love.
2. if they can’t communicate how they are personally making new disciples, effectively. I don’t want to hear them try and teach me how other people are making disciples.
3. if they refuse to acknowledge at least some of the fruit the Holy Spirit is producing through Ekklesia.
I want to see you keep blogging bro! What do you think about these thoughts of mine, Hunter?
Friday, 17. July 2009
My test worked!! lol, gee… If I knew that earlier, I coulda italicized quotes and all that good stuff. Woulda been a lot easier to read! lol
….. Now I’m wondering…. color test….
Anyway, yeah, I see your point. I do really need a better sense of when to “accept a challenge” for lack of better words, and when to just walk away.
The fact that I don’t really like doing anything that isn’t somewhat of a challenge in the first place doesn’t help this at all. lol
By the way, my name is actually Chris, I kinda mentioned it somewhere; don’t know if it was taken as just sarcasm or what.
I used “THEHUNTER034” because I wanted people to realize that I was the same guy on YouTube (I try to use the same screen name for different sites as much as I can)… and because there was enough confusion about the number of Chris’ here already. lol
I don’t mind being referred to as “Hunter” though (among other things, it’s kind of a reference to one of my favorite Christian bands!)
Friday, 17. July 2009
Demon Hunter? Nice.
I’m with you bro, I’m all about the challenge! Here’s a challenge for both of us Chris’s: “Be disciples. Make disciples.”
Following Jesus and getting others to follow Him is about as challenging as it gets. There are too many potential Jesus followers out there to spend time getting bogged down by critics. WWJD baby!
Friday, 17. July 2009
Yup, Demon Hunter! lol
and thanks
Monday, 20. July 2009
Thank you for posting that, Chris (Lambert). It was discouraging to see so much disunity, especially the month after we are all hyped up about One Prayer!
Passiflora, read this (Ephesians 4:15)
“Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.”
If you wish to grow into a leader or teacher in any way (and you have been trying to teach us something) speak the truth in love as our Lord admonishes.
Thursday, 23. July 2009
Busy, busy, busy! “3D” means my life beyond the computer screen, and mine is pretty busy. Maybe it’s one of those “web-standard” things you haven’t come across yet, Hunter. And FYI…when I use all caps, it’s generally not that I’m yelling, but rather to put emphasis on certain information or scripture. I don’t have the capacity to “bold” or “italicize” HERE, or at least I don’t know how that’s accomplished here. When I see a lot of exclamation points, then I think that person is yelling or overly excited.
Much to address, but can’t right now.
But anyway, I thought I’d stop by and drop this little edifying bomb on you.
A must read for everyone! Man! Does it ever apply here!
THE TRUTH ABOUT ACTS 17
http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/03/07/session-7-%e2%80%93-phil-johnson/
Friday, 24. July 2009
Actually, “3D” isn’t very common really. Definitely not as common as “lol”. But I do get how it could mean “life beyond the computer screen.”
And yeah, I didn’t know that one could make stuff bold or italic here, so I was using caps too.
You put [b] and [/b] around the text you want bold ([i] and [/i] for italics)
But instead of using ] and [ you use > and <
Don't forget the end marker though! [/b] or [/i] Because if you do, all the text afterward will be bold/italic. lol
Saturday, 25. July 2009
Thank, Hunter. I KNEW with certainty that you would explain all that to me. Caps seem simpler, but I shall try it. [b] bold [/b] seems like a hassle, and unclear, but let’s see if that worked. And, by the way, I am not Rev. Diehl. Don’t know him. I’m a female, old enough to be your grandmother – if I’d had a kid at about 19, who’d had another kid at 19. Do you think that maybe you know TWICE as much as you did when you were 9 or 10 years old? I may not be very computer-savvy, since it’s relatively new and ever-changing technology, but I do believe that with age comes a degree of wisdom. I do not make the claim to know it all though. I am just a doulos for Christ’s sake.
Saturday, 25. July 2009
To Alex – Where does the Bible say that one is to love ordained pastors who are false teachers? Would you kindly find me a scripture on that?
James 3:1 reads, “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” And Paul exhorted to Timothy to accurately handle the truth. Pastors, not laypeople like us, are held to a higher standard, and as such should be VERY careful with their words and what they teach.
My love and concern has always been, and always will be, for the flock of a false teacher, so that they would not follow him to hell. Though there are several examples of his false teachings here (some of which I have yet to point out,) I think the link I provided above shows how he has misinterpreted Acts 17, using it to justify his iFart commercial.
Here is the thing about false teachers. Some of what they say is true, otherwise they would be easily spot. For Chris to expect praise for the true things he is preaching says something else about him – something that I have already noted: He is seeking praise and flattery. And he lied about being open to correction.
Further, he has sent an e-mail to my old Hotmail account that I don’t use, but receive a few things, and has said to me that people won’t respond to my posts “largely because they are too long.” Yet he responded to Hunter’s long post. Why? Because it flatters him. And it belies the very fact that he DOES respond long posts, which he said he would not. He’d be totally stupid not to read what his critics are saying about him.
Chris is not “all about the challenge,” since he won’t answer his critic’s posts – be they long or short. You see – he hasn’t replied to my short post either – the recent one about the truth of Acts 17.
Jesus said, “Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.” Luke 6:25
Truth is not any individual’s opinion or imagination. Truth is what God decrees. Christ has graciously given us enough truth and enough understanding to equip us for every good deed – including the work of earnestly contending for the faith against deceivers who try to twist the truth of the gospel.
And that, Hunter, applies to the story of the widow’s mite as well. We can’t say, “Maybe God put it on her heart…” There is no indication of that.
Much more to address later. I’m in the middle of overseeing a home renovation and dealing with several contractors on a rental house my mother owns that was severely damaged by meth addicts. Some contractors recommended it be torn down, but that’s a matter of opinion, too, and a way for them to make more money.
Monday, 27. July 2009
Did anyone connected to Ekklesia read the Acts 17 article posted by Passiflora and find themselves questioning the Spirit’s inspiration of the mission of Ekklesia, and/or any of the teachings regarding “reaching out with selling out” that I have given? If so, I’d love to blog with you.
Monday, 27. July 2009
You have to use the arrow-type bracket thingies (I don’t know what they are called lol) like these: > <
(sorry, I know I’m not very good at explaining things like that.)
You can use caps if you like, but personally I like to use bold and italic fonts, it makes everything flow better, and looks more professional. I’m a perfectionist sometimes lol.
My issue wasn’t that you didn’t fully understand what “lol” meant (I realize that not everyone knows such things), but that you responded to it in more of what seemed to be a harsh manor than necessary. Maybe that’s just the way I interpreted it, so whatever.
I agree that a certain degree of wisdom comes with age too, but you shouldn’t assume that those who are younger than you don’t have any wisdom.
“Truth is not any individual’s opinion or imagination. Truth is what God decrees.”
I certainly agree with that.
But I still haven’t figured out what is wrong with the whole “farting” thing, at least not by God’s standards in the Bible.
You are busy, so perhaps you just haven’t gotten to it. No big deal.
And as far as the truth of Acts 17 link you posted, I basically agree with it all. But I’m not really sure how it applies to the “Did Jesus Fart?” video. There wasn’t any foul language, violence, or sexual themes in it. Well, except the “fart” thing, but that is only people’s opinion that its “dirty” as it is being used in its literal sense “flatulence.”
And this is probably for a whole different blog, but I’m still not sure how a word becomes “dirty” like the “S-word.” It literally means feces, along with the words “crap” and “poop/poo.” “Crap” is kind of half-dirty to some people I guess. And “poop/poo” doesn’t seem to be dirty at all or “vulgar” as it says in the dictionary (all three words are in there; http://www.merriam-webster.com) all three words can be used in the same manor.
Note that I’m not condoning the use of the “curse words” and I don’t use them myself, I’m just a little confused as to how a particular word or phrase becomes “bad”
Wednesday, 29. July 2009
Chris writes: “Did anyone connected to Ekklesia read the Acts 17 article posted by Passiflora and find themselves questioning the Spirit’s inspiration of the mission of Ekklesia, and/or any of the teachings regarding “reaching out with selling out” that I have given? If so, I’d love to blog with you.”
I hardly think that if they questioned your mission in light of what I posted that they would post it here.
But here’s another of Phil’s lectures on the subject, given at the 2009 Shepherd’s Conference at my church.
“Sound Doctrine, Sound Words.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EFXP04ke2o
See that pulpit? It’s really cool. It disappears down into the floor when it’s time to hear the orchestra and choir, who deliver the kind of Spirit-filled worship music described in Ephesians 5:18-19 – “And do not get drunk with wine for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord,” – and elsewhere. Not exactly “Demon Hunter.” Is that what is called, “Christian Metal,” or “Christian Grunge?”
Our orchestra conductor just celebrated 30 years of service to our church. Here’s the sermon John MacArthur delivered on that day – it distinguishes partly what it means to “be filled with the Spirit” in light of the fact that some, like Hunter, think it’s some kind of instantaneous mystical experience that takes place at baptism or that speaking in tongues is the evidence of being filled with the Spirit.
“Spirit-Filled Music”
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-377
(And if you wish to complain about the “length” of any particular post, it makes me question how much time you actually spend reading the Bible or any Biblical references. It might mean too much effort on your part.)
Hunter, you’re kinda out of the loop here if you don’t know how Acts 17 applies to the iFart commercial. It was sad to see you needed to resort to a secular reference like Merriam Webster to come up with your definition of sanctification. But there’s a reason you don’t quite get that either. It’s the other part of what it means to “be filled with the Spirit.” It’s a lifelong process of becoming more and more Christ-like and holy.
And did you miss Chris’ (the pastor’s) use of the word, “crap?” Seems to me you’re not reading all of the blogs here.
Oh yeah ~ meant to tell you – I had a daughter at age 41, which means I am the proud parent of a teenager! Presently, she’s away at Bible Camp – up in the glorious Costal California Redwoods – one of God’s most amazing creations – with her youth group, called “OneEighty.” It’s a name used nationally for that age group. Four busloads of them went. It was amazing to find out that they hired first-class tour busses with smoked windows, individual air conditioning controls, reclining seats, and four overhead televisions for less that the cost of renting regular school busses! They look like airliners inside…lol. Must be the dire CA economy – touring busses scrambling for jobs in a down economy and state government hiking up the cost of everything, including school bus rentals, to get out of hock. And I’m hooked up to live streaming videos and blogs from the camp, which is really fun!
The kids have their music, which is different, yet God-exalting, but when she comes to the main Worship Center and hears the orchestra play and the choir sing a Psalm put to Mendelssohn or Bach, or a good, old-fashioned hymn with words taken right out of scripture, you see the goose bumps appear on her arms, and sometimes watering eyes. It seems to have a deeper meaning for her. She’s now taking private violin instruction in preparation to learn it further in the Fall, when she returns to school – and would one day love to play in that orchestra! Halleluiah!
More later~~~
Thursday, 30. July 2009
Didn’t watch the video, as it’s an hour long. But I did read the article you posted a link to.
A few things kind of stood out, not a whole heck of a lot. But worth mentioning.
“People sometimes ask me about musical preferences and I will just tell you this, I don’t…I don’t need music to that whips up my emotions. I am content with any kind of music that allows me to give expression to the truth that I believe. I want to think about what I’m singing.”
As you said, “The kids have their music, which is different, yet God-exalting”
That’s what it is.
Ever since the day that I was made I’ve been deciding the end
And I was made of wood and stone that won’t diminish or bend
So when the heavy hand of death is here to take me away
I’ll be the solid grip of time, forever holding my stay
Nobody ever made a force that took a beating like me
I call the earth and every scum to come and try to fight me
Cus when I made the choice to live beyond the dirt that we tread
I felt the curse of mortal limit fall before it was said
Pre-chorus:
When this season ends
Chorus:
One final heart-break
And blinding lights will guide our way
Free us our blind state
They will call us by our name
Undying
Tearing through these days I find the tolerance to strive and push on
I know what lies beyond this life for me is already won
No one can take away the blood that covers over my fall
Without the blood of perfect life I know I’m nothing at all
So now I reign forever hallowed in eternity’s hand
No man can shake me from the everlasting ground that I stand
(Chorus)
We are the ones who will still remain when all is laid to waste
We are the ones who, when angels cry, will see them face to face
We are the ones
I just happen to like the style of metal.
I also like a few hymns, along with a little of every style of music (as long as the lyrics are God-exalting.)
I don’t have a problem if someone just doesn’t like metal. But what I have a problem with is when they don’t learn about the meaning of the lyrics before they condemn the song or artist.
If you can find something that is not of Christ in this song, please let me know. If you don’t even know for sure what it’s called, I doubt you even bothered to research it.
(By the way, that was “Undying” by Demon Hunter)
Also in this article speaking in other tongues is said to be a “a wild, ecstatic experience, some kind of mystical trauma, some kind of ecstatic speech.” and I won’t deny that some practice it that way.
Then right after the previous quote; “It’s very thoughtful, it’s very controlled, it’s very orderly, it’s very reasonable. And it is to be a constant reality.”
I speak in other tongues, the experience is somewhat hard to explain, but I will do my best lol.
You are fully conscious and aware of things around you, you can stop speaking in other tongues any time, and speak English (or any other language you have learned, you get what I mean) it’s not anything like a trance or drunk or something weird like that. It’s not just “some once-in-a-while deal,” it’s for praying and praising all the time. It is pretty confusing before you actually experience it (I know, I’ve been there obviously).
This isn’t controlling the Spirit, as He is controlling what is actually spoken. I’m not very eloquent in speech, I’m not very good at putting words in order and saying them at the same time (that’s probably a big reason why I like text) and I don’t always know what to say. That happens to all of us at one time or another, but He always knows what needs to be said.
That’s just the “other tongues” aspect of being filled with the Spirit. Of course obeying God and allowing Him to guide you is the biggest thing.
When you speak of your daughter having goose bumps on her arms, or her eyes watering, it’s a good thing because it’s with the old-school hymns (and I agree). But is that not a product of emotion? If you think it’s good in this case, you can’t say it’s bad in mine.
(By the way… “old-school” isn’t disrespectful; it’s a positive term here. I don’t want you to take it the wrong way.)
And if you notice, I posted what I personally thought it meant “to be sanctified; to be set apart and pure for God” pure also means holy in this case.
Then I looked up and posted what it said in the dictionary. I didn’t resort to a secular reference to come up with it.
But I do kinda see how you might have thought I had to look it up first.
And no, I’m not reading all of the blogs here, what’s your point? I’m discussing the “Did Jesus Fart?” video, not the other blogs, or Chris’ use of the word “crap.” Which is generally used in place of “darn” or it would mean something that is worthless (much like feces). I don’t mind saying “crap” in that sense, but never calling someone a “piece of crap” or anything like that, that would be cursing their worth, defiantly something we shouldn’t do.
But I don’t know what context he used the word “crap” in, so I can’t give any comment on it.
I’m yet to hear why the “Did Jesus Fart?” video is bad, by the way.
Snazzy tour busses for less than regular school busses? Hey! At least some good can come outta these crappy economic times! lol
(“Crappy” as in “worthless” what would be the proper usage of the word. But that’s just my opinion, as it is most likely yours that I shouldn’t use it at all.)
The Detroit area isn’t doin too hot either, I’m sure you’ve heard about that. So don’t think I’m making fun of your economic situation in CA.
Thursday, 30. July 2009
Wow. Michael Yousef, a graduate of Fuller no less, speaks out on the arrogance of those who spoke in tongues in Paul’s day. Seems that arrogance still exists today, since proponents say, like you do, that if you can’t speak in tongues, then you do not have the Holy Spirit within you. He also reiterates what I said earlier on the topic – that is was a real language, but not the most important, used to spread the gospel in foreign lands – not the gibberish people of today are claiming as their “prayer language.”
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Leading_the_Way/
You do realize, Hunter, that beyond this apostate “seeker-sensitive, culture-driven, man-centered” Emergent Church Movement, of which Ekklesia is a part of, most of the other heretics are found in the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement? Crouch, Hinn, Roberts, Copeland, Hagin, DuPlantis, Dollar, Parsley, Meyers, White, Jakes, Hickey, Murdock, Price, Hagee – and even Jack Hayford – president of Foursquare International – all Pentecostals.
“Slain in the Spirit.” Power of suggestion. Much of what these goat herders preach is the byproduct of the metaphysical cultic teachings of Phineus P. Quimby and E. W. Kenyon.
Benny Hinn was a high school drop-out. Modeled himself after Kathryn Kuhlman, another fraudulent faith healer. Claims he spoke with her after she died…lol. Aimee Semple McPherson, founder of the Foursquare Church was an adultress. The list goes on…..
Oh ya. Lovely bunch.
Thursday, 30. July 2009
“since proponents say, like you do, that if you can’t speak in tongues, then you do not have the Holy Spirit within you.”
I already addressed this, twice.
I don’t mean to sound rude… But please stop doing that, and come up with a real argument. I think it’s beyond a simple misunderstanding now.
I see why Chris doesn’t generally engage people like you, it goes nowhere. I can’t say I blame him.
Monday, 3. August 2009
Um…the second time you addressed this came up AFTER I had written the above post and submitted it, but it was still awaiting moderation. So don’t be so quick to BLAME me.
It is a real argument. And you didn’t even defend what Charismatic Pentecostalism teaches – that if one does not speak in tongues, then the Holy Spirit is not in them. YOU EVEN SAID THAT YOURSELF. That’s the biggest lie you’ve been fed.
But then you don’t even want to see my argument against the iFart video….so it goes nowhere either…lol. I laid out plenty of scripture which, in “your opinion,” didn’t seem to address the issue, and yet hardly anyone from Ekklesia has posted since….anywhere on this website.
Could it be that they get it, but that you don’t? Could it be that they’ve read my other posts in other blogs here and understand something you don’t? Or perhaps they’ve chosen to muzzle their voices, as their “fearless” leader has – because their arguments are weak, and I‘ve countered them succinctly? Could it be your typically recalcitrant age and that you have a long way to go in the sanctification process of personal holiness? Could it be that you don’t WANT to see?
“Sanctification: To be sanctified; pure, holy.” Man, if that isn’t a standard dictionary definition, I don’t know what is. I doubt your faith even teaches this doctrine, since according to them, it happens at the time of regeneration (baptism) – same as when this “indescribable change” takes place. That’s why you had to look it up. That’s why it was “easy for me to see it that way.”
I am wondering why you couldn’t take an hour to be edified by the truth of God’s Word regarding “Sound Doctrine, Sound Words.” Is it because you might hear something that would blow your silly arguments out of the water, too? How much time do you give to the Lord per day?
Got a couple more questions for you.
You stated, “Yes, if I have a little gas, I do try to umm… “Release” it in a manner that people won’t notice, especially among people I don’t know well.”
Why?
Later you stated, “Note that I’m not condoning the use of the “curse words” and I don’t use them myself…”
Why not condone “curse words?”
[b] bold [/b] See above also. It didn’t work for me, or I am not doing it right. But that’s okay. Caps work for me, thanks. I’m not a perfectionist. Just a “progressionist.” With all due respect, thanks for trying to help. Most of the time, I am not yelling – just emphasizing, like I did here.
I’m going to post something else from another blog here, which was written by a pastor in St. Louis, which may help you understand a little better. Tomorrow – if I have the time.
Monday, 3. August 2009
I love God with everything I have and I see absolutely nothing wrong with this video or with any teaching or preaching I have ever heard from any of the pastors at Ekklesia. Listen to the youtube sermons maybe you will look at this body of believers differently. http://www.youtube.com/EkklesiaDetroit
Monday, 3. August 2009
Hi Mark ~
I knew I would rattle some chains at Ekklesia with a few of my comments. It’s great that you love God with everything you have. So do I.
But are you sure you are saved? Have you been taught the doctrine of assurance? I mean, are you aware that there are many “professing believers” that are NOT SAVED, and on their way to hell?
There are several scriptures that support that teaching, yet few pastors who have the guts to teach it. It’s not common among most Postmodern preachers of today. My pastor has taught it, and wrote at least one book about it, and I am currently listening to another pastor teach it online. It’s a vital teaching!
I will watch the link you sent me, but I’ve already seen what Chris has done in his “Praise & Rebuke” video sermon. And as I have said before, the reason heresy is hard to spot is because much of what a pastor preaches is TRUE – and because people are not Bereans, so they don’t know the truth from a lie.
Nothing personal. That’s just the way it is. My messages to Ekklesia may sound harsh, but the most loving thing a person could do is lead someone to true victory in Christ.
Here’s an interesting observational quote from a different YouTube video, not pertaining to Ekklesia:
“The problem is no one wants to come up to God’s level. Everyone wants God to lower His standards and come down to their level. Unbelievers don’t want to hear it because that means they have to turn away from their own unrighteous lives.”
When the poster says they don’t want to hear “it,” it is evident to me that what the poster is referencing is the COMPLETE GOSPEL.
Anything less is a different gospel.
And that, my friend, is a poster who loves God with EVERYTHING they have, and would never reduce advertising Christ to one of man’s LOWEST common denominators – that of passing gas.
We need to EXALT Him. We need to GLORIFY Him. Not reduce Him. Your eternity is in His hands. Hell is just as real as heaven, and as I’ve said before – “the gate is narrow, and few will find it.” Beyond unbelievers, it’s probably because many professing Christians don’t have assurance. Do you know what I mean by that?
Monday, 3. August 2009
Footnote:
The poster said, “The problem is no one wants to come up to God’s level.”
Coming up to God’s level is the life-long process of sanctification – to grow in personal holiness – to conform to the likeness of Christ – as opposed to Him conforming to us.
Monday, 3. August 2009
Here’s an analogy. I used to sell life insurance products. When one buys any kind of insurance, (property & casualty, or life & medical,) they do so in case of injury or loss – due to an accident, medical problem, fire, or any kind of damage to their person or property. They transfer the RISK of such an occurrence to the life insurance company, so that in the event something should happen, they are not wiped out financially. Makes sense so far, right?
When one pays premiums on a LIFE insurance policy, the insurance company takes the KNOWN RISK in this particular case, DEATH, and transfer the cost of it to the insurance company. Everyone, unless some of us are raptured, is going to die, right? So it is a known risk. Without life insurance, if one dies, especially young and unexpectedly, they could have amassed a HUGE DEBT that needs to be paid off. Beyond the cost of funeral expenses, there could be such debts as a mortgage, college tuitions for their children, auto loans, credit card debt. They may be “up to their eyeballs” in debt! (I saw that in a commercial once – don’t remember what it was they were selling though.)
But anyway, this debt is left to the spouse – often the wife, who makes less or no money, and the family is forced to make some drastic changes. And so people buy LIFE insurance as a legacy to their family to keep them from financial ruin. Very few husbands want to leave the family they love that way.
LIFE ASSURANCE is like LIFE INSURANCE. Death is certain. (Caveat – rapture.) Heaven and hell are certain. There are premiums to be paid. What are those premiums? What does Christ mean when He said, “Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness” to people who professed to believe? What does “Faith without works is dead” mean? Are we to believe that we are NOT saved by grace in faith alone then? The answers are found in the doctrine of assurance.
And I am like the life assurance salesman or the husband because I don’t want to leave those I care about behind, left to pay back a debt they can’t. I don’t want to leave ANYONE behind – including those at Ekklesia. I don’t want you to be wiped out.
You could also call it FIRE INSURANCE, when you think about it.
Clue: Assurance is not about “works.” It’s about behavior. If we have the right behavior, which is led by the Holy Spirit, “works” is a natural outcropping of the indwelling.
Tuesday, 4. August 2009
This is for Hunter…The following is a repost from another blog here, as I mentioned above, written by a pastor in St. Louis. This time, I have added caps for emphasis.
—
THE BATTLE OVER TRUTH FOR OUR YOUTH
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. Psalm 119:9
Believers throughout every generation have experienced manifold problems in their attempts to live for Christ. Although circumstances and situations may vary greatly over millennia, God has nevertheless provided His remedy, which is both timeless and completely sufficient: “by taking heed thereto according to thy word.”
When God has provided the solution, it doesn’t take special insight to recognize that Satan, God’s adversary, will make GOD’S WORD the chief focus of his strategy of subversion. It began in the Garden of Eden, when the Serpent, in dialogue with Eve, cunningly seduced her into reconsidering what God had commanded: “YEA, HATH GOD SAID…?” Dialogues have a way of subverting God’s absolutes by either ADDING ERRONEOUS CONTENT OR SUBTRACTING CRITICAL TRUTH. That has been Satan’s amazingly effective game plan throughout the ages as he has “blinded the minds of them which believe not” and SHIPWRECKED THE FAITH OF SOME WHO BELIEVED (2 Corinthians 4:4; 1 Timothy 1:18-19).
The “Yea, hath God said…?” tactic is nearly always followed by a DIRECT REJECTION of Scripture, as took place in the beginning (”Ye shall not surely die” -Genesis 3:4) and opens the way for God’s Word to be DENIGRATED, SCORNED, DISTORED, MOCKED, LIED ABOUT, and so forth. Although the Bible has been assaulted for thousands of years, Scripture tells us, and observation confirms, that the offensive against the Word WILL BE UNPRECEDENTED IN THE LAST DAYS (2 Timothy 3:1; 4:3-4; 1 Timothy 4:1-2).
My personal observation of the Adversary’s strategy began as a biblical Christian some three decades ago, beginning with my work with Dave Hunt in exposing the cults (Cult Explosion and The God Makers documentary films), and shortly thereafter, alerting the church to cultic beliefs and practices that had crept in among Christian fellowships (The Seduction of Christianity). For what it’s worth, I’ve spent more than a quarter of a century observing and writing about trends within evangelical Christianity. Let me identify the tactics that I believe best exemplify Satan’s assaults on the Word in these last days before Christ’s return.
I was a Roman Catholic before being born again. Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God,” neither can he “enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:3, 5). I was both blind and separated from the kingdom of God until my spiritual rebirth, which Jesus declared was imperative: “Ye must be born again” (v.7). Although Jesus made it a “must,” many if not most evangelicals today pay little heed to what He commanded, and they consequently have accepted the more than one billion Roman Catholics as “brothers and sisters in Christ.” Among their numerous distortions of the teachings of Scripture, many Catholics profess to being “born again” based upon their having been baptized as infants. The Church of Rome similarly accepts all baptized non-Catholic Christians as “separated brethren.”
Thirty years ago, some young adult evangelicals confronted me with the fact that I was not their “brother in Christ” and explained to me what the Scriptures taught, which alone could make that relationship with Jesus a reality. Today, the influence of organizations such as Evangelicals and Catholics Together, Promise Keepers, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, most parachurch ministries on college campuses, the evangelical-supported Catholic movie The Passion of the Christ, and THE RAPID GROWTH OF ECUMENISM have created an atmosphere of accepting Catholics as believers. Consequently, I (and many others that I know) have been rebuked by evangelicals for pointing out that the Roman Catholic Church has a gospel that is contrary to the Scriptures—and therefore can save no one. Moreover, we’ve been told that we have OFFENDED “fellow Catholic Christians” by witnessing to them. This is an unprecedented latter-day development among evangelicals, especially those in Christian universities and colleges.
Today’s “twenty-something” age group, GIVE OR TAKE A FEW YEARS, has become a targeted generation by the Adversary in ways that are unparalleled in modern church history. This objective is in keeping with the undermining of the Word of God by DILUTING, EVEN DENYING, its authority. What makes the strategy particularly insidious is that it’s an INSIDE JOB, i.e., it’s being perpetrated by those who claim to be evangelicals or who at least have evangelical roots. Referred to as the EMERGING CHURCH MOVEMENT, it’s a development that is attempting to reach today’s post-modern culture for Christ by “reinventing Christianity,” MAKING IT MORE ACCOMODATING TO THE ATTITUDES OF YOUNG ADULTS. For example, since the post-modern generation is characterized by a DISTAIN FOR AUTHORITY, whatever seems to suggest authority, such as preaching or teaching, is downplayed or revamped as “conversation.” (See TBC 1/08 ,3/08 ,8/08 ,12/08 )
SOUND DOCTRINE, which 2 Timothy 4:3 tells us WILL NOT BE ENDURED IN THE LAST DAYS, IS ANTHTHETICAL to this movement. Its most prolific author, Brian McLaren, demonstrates this throughout his writings: “The church latched on to that old doctrine of original sin like a dog to a stick, and before you knew it, the whole gospel got twisted around it. Instead of being God’s big message of saving love for the whole world, the gospel became a little bit of secret information on how to solve the pesky legal problem of original sin.” Elsewhere he says, “I don’t think we’ve got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be saved?…None of us have arrived at orthodoxy.” ON THE CONTRARY, I know a number of five and six-year olds who have “arrived at orthodoxy” by understanding and believing the simple gospel.
The Emerging Church Movement comes closer to FULFILLING PAUL’S PROPHETIC WARNING to the Ephesian elders (Acts 20: 28-31) than any other recent trend of which I’m aware. Indeed Emergent leaders are “SPEAKING SOME PERVERSE THINGS” and “DRAWING AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES.” TBC has received numerous letters from parents and evangelical pastors who find their young people seeking out emergent churches for the “NEW” EXPERIENCES, which they offer in abundance: religious art (primarily impressionistic images of “Jesus”), “BIBLICAL” FILMS, rituals based upon Catholic/Orthodox liturgy, “community,” personal relationships, contemplative spirituality and mysticism (some include yoga), Bible “dialogues,” ecumenical interaction with “people of faith,” A SOCIAL GOSPEL, plans to save the planet, restore the kingdom, and so forth.
The “Yea, hath God said…?” strategy has been very successful in undermining the critical belief in the SUFFICIENCY of the Word of God. Although the Bible claims to be sufficient for “all things that pertain unto life and godliness” (2 Peter 1:3), many Christians who profess to believe the Bible NO LONGER REGARD IT AS SUFFICIENT. This is particularly evident regarding COUNSELING. Many evangelical churches have become a major referral source for secular PSYCHOTHERAPISTS; shepherds more often than not are committing their sheep to such GOD-DENYING HIRELINGS for resolving life’s issues.
This may be Satan’s most cunning scheme in his assault against the Word and the Body of Christ. It is a process of seduction and intimidation. Psychological counseling has been advertized as a scientific endeavor that will help resolve the mental, emotional, and behavioral problems that Christians encounter in their daily life. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! It is neither scientific nor is it helpful (see Psychology and the Church: Critical Questions, Crucial Answers). Furthermore, its more than 500 psychotherapeutic concepts and methods are contradictory to biblical truth. Yet believers, especially pastors, have been intimidated by the MYTH that counseling is for professionals only and that only those with academic training are qualified to address a person’s mental and emotional problems. Not only is that a rejection of what the church has practiced for two-thousand years, it is at odds with current research showing that professionals DO NOT possess demonstrably superior therapeutic skills compared with nonprofessionals. Moreover, studies reveal that professional mental health education, training, and experience are NOT NECESSARY PREREQUISITES IN ORDER TO BE AN EFFECTIVE AND GOD-ORDAINED HELPER.
Foundationally, psychotherapy and the teachings of the Bible are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED to each other. Psychology teaches that man has within himself, that is, HIS SELF, all that he needs for his mental and emotional wellbeing. His problems, therefore, stem from issues EXTERNAL to himself. The Bible declares that MAN HAS A SINFUL NATURE THAT HE HIMSELF CANNOT CHANGE. HIS HEART IS THE PROBLEM, FROM FROM IT ORIGINATES EVERY SORT OF EVIL (Mark 7:21-23). When attempts are made by Christians to COMBINE PSYCHOLOGY WITH THE TEACHINGS OF SCRIPTURE, it is, wittingly or unwittingly, the ADDITION of “a way which seemeth right UNTO A MAN but the end thereof ARE THE WAYS OF DEATH” (Proverbs 14:12) AND A VARIATION of the “Yea, hath God said…?” dialogue, RESULTING IN THE CORRUPTION OF GOD’S WORD.
The influence of psychology has spread throughout the church today LIKE A PLAGUE. The Apostle Paul prophesied that the ROOT LIE of psychotherapy would prevail in the days before our Lord’s return: “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own SELVES” (2 Timothy 3:1-2). This HUMANISTIC CORNERSTONE OF SELF-LOVE has become a NEW DOCTRINE within evangelical Christianity, taught from many of the most popular pulpits. Sermons more often than not quote psychologists and teach their unbiblical psychological concepts for credibility. National evangelical conferences that DO NOT include a prominent psychologist as an “expert” on problems of living are few and far between.
So-called Christian psychologists are often better known and more respected by evangelicals than preachers and teachers. In fact, the most prominent and most influential evangelical in America is not an evangelist, not a preacher, not a Bible teacher–but a psychologist: DR JAMES DOBSON. He heads up a list of “counselors” who integrate psychology with the Bible and have become household names among Christians, including Gary Smalley, John Trent, Henry Cloud, David Stoop, Larry Crabb, John Townsend, Les and Leslie Parrot, H. Norman Wright, and on and on. Chief among organizations that undermine Scripture by mixing it with psychotherapy is the evangelical-founded American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC). It recently produced The Bible For Hope, a “newly revised counselor’s Bible,” which features 116 theme articles—most of them contributed by those with psychological counseling backgrounds, from psychiatrists to clinical psychologists and to marriage and family counselors.
Although the AACC boasts “50,000 members and growing stronger every day!”, it pales in comparison to another entity of great influence that is producing hundreds of thousands of young people who are taught to integrate psychology with Scripture: Christian colleges and universities. The second most popular career choice among evangelical institutions of higher learning is the pseudoscience of psychology. The “Yea, hath God said…?” subversion of Scripture rages on today, with accepted “truths” from Freud, Jung, Maslow, Rogers, and a host of other atheists, humanists, and anti-Christians.
—-
Wow…Doesn’t that sound like this church?
And this is just the beginning…
We are in the last days….the very last days… Repent!
=====
FYI for Hunter ~ Since you haven’t read the other blogs here, you are not aware that the pastor’s wife, who also went through Fuller Seminary, is getting another degree – in Psychology. Would you prefer the counsel of followers of atheists?
There’s a difference between “Christian Psychotherapy” (AACC) and “Biblical Counseling” (NANC) or “Christian Counseling,” (NANC) – the difference being that the first does not believe in the sufficiency of scripture, where as the latter two titles do. Oddly enough, even though the AACC refers to themselves as “Biblical Counselors,” and states that God’s Word is the FINAL authority, they are dependent on the teachings of atheists and secular humanists. It’s an irony that they do so.
NANC: National Assn. of Nouthetic Counselors. Nouthetic comes from the Greek word nouthesia, which implies SCRIPTURAL DIRECTION.
And it surprises me to see some of the people involved in the AACC. See SELF DIRECTION references below:
http://www.aacc.net/2006/02/17/samhsa-statement-10-components-of-mental-health-recovery-2/
http://www.samhsa.gov/news/newsreleases/060215_consumer.htm
Hunter, there’s a lot more going on here than you are aware of, but since you wouldn’t listen to Phil Johnson’s “hour-long” lecture because it was “too long for you,” (excuses, excuses – LAME,) it doesn’t surprise me that you haven’t read the other blogs and are, by default, out of the loop and lacking in understanding the truth.
Tuesday, 4. August 2009
Need a break from all this seriousness? Want some humor?
Just so you know, I, nor my church is without laughter. JM actually disagreed with his father’s style of preaching in this area, and his father’s admonition to not include humor in his preaching. So we have a good laugh or two every week.
Laughter is biblical – course jesting and filty talk is not.
But here’s some humor that I passed on to an elderly client of mine when I was working in the insurance industry. He made 400 copies and passed it out to the members of his Methodist congregation.
You will notice that it contains modern-day language, but it is not “course” nor “filthy” language that degrades Christ in any way, and in fact, presents the ENTIRE gospel message. Enjoy!
======
RECALL NOTICE
The Maker of all human beings is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.
This is due to a malfunction in the original prototype units, code-named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units.
This defect has been technically termed, “Subsequential Internal Non-morality,” or more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.
Some other symptoms include:
1. Loss of direction
2. Foul vocal emissions
3. Amnesia of origin
4. Lack of peace and joy
5. Selfish or violent behavior
6. Depression or confusion in the mental component
7. Fearfulness
8. Idolatry
9. Rebellion
The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing Factory-authorized repair and service, free of charge, to correct this S.I.N. defect. The Repair Technician, Jesus, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required, but try your best to stay compliant in usage. If you need assistance in that area, the toll-free number to call for repair in all areas is: 1-800-P-R-A-Y-E-R-S.
Once connected, please upload your burden of S.I.N. through the REPENTANCE procedure.
Next download ATONEMENT from the Repair Technician, Jesus, into the heart component.
No matter how big or small the S.I.N. defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self control
Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (Believers Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.
WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any Manufacturer’s warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded.
DANGER: The human being units not responding to this recall action will have to be scrapped in the Furnace. The S.I.N. defect will not be permitted to enter heaven so as to prevent contamination of that facility.
Thank you for your attention! Please assist where possible by notifying others of this important recall notice. You may contact the Father any time by “knee-mail.”
Tuesday, 4. August 2009
“the second time you addressed this came up AFTER I had written the above post and submitted it”
The second time I addressed it was a number of posts before (by both of us), so basic logic would say that the pending moderation had nothing to do with it.
Unless you are referring to a different post than what I was thinking of.
“It is a real argument. And you didn’t even defend what Charismatic Pentecostalism teaches – that if one does not speak in tongues, then the Holy Spirit is not in them. YOU EVEN SAID THAT YOURSELF. That’s the biggest lie you’ve been fed.”
First, let’s establish a simple truth here — You can’t eat what you haven’t been served.
Why would I defend what I don’t believe? It should be obvious by now that I’m not part of what you see as the typical Pentecostal belief system.
“But then you don’t even want to see my argument against the iFart video….so it goes nowhere either…lol. I laid out plenty of scripture which, in “your opinion,” didn’t seem to address the issue”
Uhh, if I didn’t want to even see your argument against the “Did Jesus Fart?” video, why did I even come here? It would have been a heck of a lot easier to just ignore the message you sent me on YouTube if I really didn’t want to see it. I came here because I did want to see your argument, because you claimed to actually have scripture to back it up. If I was wrong, and the video was anywhere near as disrespectful as you claim it was, then I would change my view on it.
I haven’t seen any scripture you posted that would say that farting is bad or disrespectful, because you are so strongly against conforming to our society, and the idea that flatulence is “dirty” or “crude” is only something we learned because of our society.
“Sanctification: To be sanctified; pure, holy.” Man, if that isn’t a standard dictionary definition, I don’t know what is. I doubt your faith even teaches this doctrine, since according to them, it happens at the time of regeneration (baptism) – same as when this “indescribable change” takes place. That’s why you had to look it up. That’s why it was “easy for me to see it that way.”
Oh gosh, again, You can’t eat what you haven’t been served.
How can you already know what my church teaches when you so obviously have a prejudice towards anything that even so much as partially identifies itself with Pentecostalism?
My church never has taught (and I’ve been going to the same church for my whole life) that sanctification happens at baptism.
And, as I said before, I didn’t have to look it up, I looked it up after I typed what I personally thought it meant. And I never said it wasn’t an ongoing process.
“I am wondering why you couldn’t take an hour to be edified by the truth of God’s Word regarding “Sound Doctrine, Sound Words.” Is it because you might hear something that would blow your silly arguments out of the water, too?”
Actually, it was because I figured it wouldn’t be any more helpful than the link to the article you posted (which I read first) and I didn’t really want to waste the hour and not gain anything. But since you insisted, I did sit down and watch the whole thing, and I was right. It didn’t help any (as far as the “Did Jesus Fart” video goes).
You stated, “Yes, if I have a little gas, I do try to umm… “Release” it in a manner that people won’t notice, especially among people I don’t know well.”
Why?
Uhh, cause people I don’t know very well might have views like you and totally flip out.
And because most people don’t like the smell too much, and you never know how potent it might be till it’s out.
(you asked)
Later you stated, “Note that I’m not condoning the use of the “curse words” and I don’t use them myself…”
Why not condone “curse words?”
Because along the lines of what the pastor in the video you linked to said, if even secular organizations (like the FCC) says you aren’t allowed to say certain words because they are “foul” or “obscene”, you know you probably shouldn’t be saying them.
But in certain societies/cultures (like other countries) some words we might consider to be “dirty” aren’t bad at all. Is it okay to say them in those societies? Because the only reason they are “dirty” is because the society/culture says so (and of course, the way people use them).
And “crap” isn’t really considered by most to be a “bad” word, at least where I’m from. (Which is pretty close to where Ekklesia is.)